D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

Magic can do things not-mahic can't. Let's make this simple: what can not-magic do that magic can't?

In the broader context of fantasy? All sorts of things depending upon any consistent rules that have been established or inconsistent author force that has been applied. For a completely off the wall example, in the short-lived 80s comedy, Wizards & Warriors "wizards can't kill" ("true, but we can put you to sleep for 1000 years!").

In D&D, specifically, there's basically nothing non-casters can do that casters can't. Especially in 5e, where every class has at least one class that casts. True, in the classic game there were outright proscriptions, and Wizard or Cleric literally /couldn't/ use a sword, but they could both still attack with a weapon, so it's just something they couldn't do as well, not something they couldn't do at all.

There's 2 things going on in D&D.

One is that magic is too versatile, low cost, plentiful, and powerful all at once. As said, most fantasy magic has more limits. It doesn't leave a lot of space for non magic to shine.

Second is that there are a few things D&D magic can't do (although there is Wish so maybe it can) but that stuff isn't always important in D&D or hard to put into practice.

Can D&D magic earn the respect of the common man?

Can D&D magic earn the true love of the princess?

Can D&D magic take the place of someone "true of heart" needed to activate the ancient whatever?

Even if this is established as important, it's not part of the Class, and you better believe that mundane martial has to "play it out" going through whatever DM gates are needed to receive this boon. Which sort of puts it back into the table play category.
 

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No. It’s solvable by an individual dm for an individual table, it just highly restricts what they can run to achieve this state and its also very hard to get right.

If one cares more about scenarios that follow from the fiction than balance or ease of adventure design then it’s likely unsolvable for that particular dm/group - aka those things can come into conflict otherwise.

As you mentioned the other option is to put in a game mechanic.

You could say 1 long rest every 8 encounters, 2 shorts rests between long rests.

You can put some in game fictional elements around why this happens. For instance, wizards need to be continuously thinking and solving equations in their mind to refresh their weave or whatever. Sometimes it takes longer and sometimes shorter to solve. For some reason being in stressful situations (encounters) usually speeds up this time.

Deities answer prayers at their whim. etc.

Yes, it strains a little but it is an in fiction justification. Think about it once then just move on and never think about it again.
 

As you mentioned the other option is to put in a game mechanic.

You could say 1 long rest every 8 encounters, 2 shorts rests between long rests.

You can put some in game fictional elements around why this happens. For instance, wizards need to be continuously thinking and solving equations in their mind to refresh their weave or whatever. Sometimes it takes longer and sometimes shorter to solve. For some reason being in stressful situations (encounters) usually speeds up this time.

Deities answer prayers at their whim. etc.

Yes, it strains a little but it is an in fiction justification. Think about it once then just move on and never think about it again.
“Your ability to properly rest is hampered by the fact that you’re not actually tired, you lay around camp for 8 hours fidgeting restlessly and do not gain the benefits of a long rest”
 

“Your ability to properly rest is hampered by the fact that you’re not actually tired, you lay around camp for 8 hours fidgeting restlessly and do not gain the benefits of a long rest”
"You are bone tired, but anxieties about completely trivial matters keep you from drifting off. Did you remember to pack extra pants? Did Lidda really accept your apology when you knocked over her canteen during your last break? Is she mad at you now and just not saying? Are things going to be awkward all day tomorrow? How can you make it up to her? Would trying just make things worse because she wasn't actually made in the first place? How is it that we know a longsword inherently does more damage even if a dagger across the throat kills like instantly? What if we're all just mental constructs controlled by sad nerds from a dimension one level higher then us who are in turn controlled by a runaway chemical reaction piloting a skeleton that is in turn inhabiting a meat mech?"
 

As you mentioned the other option is to put in a game mechanic.

You could say 1 long rest every 8 encounters, 2 shorts rests between long rests.

You can put some in game fictional elements around why this happens. For instance, wizards need to be continuously thinking and solving equations in their mind to refresh their weave or whatever. Sometimes it takes longer and sometimes shorter to solve. For some reason being in stressful situations (encounters) usually speeds up this time.

Deities answer prayers at their whim. etc.

Yes, it strains a little but it is an in fiction justification. Think about it once then just move on and never think about it again.
That's 13th Age approach; Heinsoo and Tweet suggest that the mechanical effects of the heal-up (13A name for long rests, after three nasty battles or equivalent) correlate with events in the game world. In my experience it works very well in general, but sometimes it may feel strained and contrived.
 

Subclass, backgrounds, skills, feats, races and ability score distribution all have various levels of influence of the time of a campaign and the acceptance of the DM.

Why is the fighter fully designed around appeasing the few DM who demand the fighter be 10% Combat with no brainpower, skills, exploration power, and social power which could be overshadowed or outniched

They do have the opportunity to get these things though. I think 6 of 10 fighter subclasses bring an extra proficiency to the game and Rune Knight brings both an extra proficiency and advantage on multiple skills.

Fighters have those extra options, so they can take them. Feats like Ritual Caster, Skilled, and Magic Initiate for example are intended primarily for non-casters and they gave fighters an extra ASis to take that sort of stuff.

Would it be okay for the wizard only to have evocation spells and tell them to "take a subclass, skill prof, feat, race and ability score mod to do anything else"?

Wizard subclasses are weaker than figher subclasses and the rules do tell Wizards they have to take and prepare a specific spell if they want to do anything, then they need to both prepare it and spend a spell slot casting it.

Wizards can really do it all but A WIZARD can't do it all and a Wizard that takes spells to dominate for the social or exploration pillars is going to be pretty weak in combat.

There are some tables where Wizards are afforded the opportunity to get the number of spells required to "do it all" but in my experience that is the real 10% of DMs. Most campaigns do not afford time to add lots of spells to your spellbook.

I have played very high level powerful combat Wizards and I never played a single one that had all 3 pillars covered or that was the best in even two of the pillars. The Bladesingers in particular I have played are the most powerful melee combat builds I have done personally but they are burning high level slots on things like False Life, Song of Defense and Tasha's otherworldy Guise like it is going out of style. They have low Charisma and lowish Wisdom, and at the end of the day, they have below average utility out of combat. Not none, but not a lot. My high level fighters have all been MUCH better out of combat than my high level Bladesingers.


What essentially happened is that WOTC surveyed the community in 2013 and there were just enough Toms, Dicks, and Harrys who wanted the fighter to be 100% Combat, 0% anything else to nudge noncombat fightery things out of satisfaction threshold and ensure that dabbling in noncombat was weak as well. +2 to alchemist supplies does nothing vs the d20 afterall.

However when 5e released, Tom, Dick, and Harry went back to older editions or OSR. 5e had made concessions to people who don't even play 5e. And then 5e developped a Sunk Cost Fallacy once it became popular.

I don't agree with this interpretation and a lot of those asking for more balance don't either. I don't think a lot of people went back to OSR. I know I started playing D&D in 1980 and I did not go back to OSR.

At the end of the day the fighter in 5E is only 100% combat if the player builds it to be 100% combat.


As a whole the 5e community doesn't feel skilled as anything in play due to the unreliablity of the d20 unless
  1. You have Expertise at the check
  2. Your have Proficiency in the check and a primary or secondary score which matches the check
  3. You have magic that boost or overrides the check
  4. You have a class feature that boost or overrides the check

Most fighter subclasses offer extra skill proficiencies, at least one of the fighter subclasses gets expertise in a skill, another offers advantage on multiple skills and a third offers a 1d8 bonus on skill checks sever times a day that scales to a higher dice with level.

The skill expert feat also gives expertise while boosting an ability and a fighter has an extra ASI to devote to this if she wants.

If fighters did not have subclasses that offered this, or an extra ASI that offered these things that may be an argument, but those things are available to fighters who choose to take them. Som of those combos (example Rune Knight and skill expert) can be taken without compromising combat power at all.

As an example, take a Mountain Dwarf Rune Knight, Knight background at 8th level, who used his extra ASI for skill expert:
  • Your abilities are 2 points higher than most race/class combos (1 point for mountain dwarf, 1 point for skill expert)
  • You have proficiency in 9 tools and speak 4 languages.
  • You have proficiency in 5 skills, expertise in 1 skill
  • you roll with advantage on up to either 5 skills or alternatively 4 skills and all of your 9 tools
  • you have 3 retainers that can do all sorts of things outside of combat, including "Help" on ability checks when they happen to be around.
If you like skills more than tools, you can make the same sort of build using a half-elf and have proficiency in 2 tools and 7 skills, while still being 2 points ahead of other race/class combos in terms of your ability scores.

Another third option I can forgo the expertise, lose 1 skill proficiency and use my extra feat for Lucky and get to reroll a failed check 3 times a day (often in this case rerolling a check I made originally with advantage) and I do this while still having better ability scores than most other players!
 
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As you mentioned the other option is to put in a game mechanic.

You could say 1 long rest every 8 encounters, 2 shorts rests between long rests.

You can put some in game fictional elements around why this happens. For instance, wizards need to be continuously thinking and solving equations in their mind to refresh their weave or whatever. Sometimes it takes longer and sometimes shorter to solve. For some reason being in stressful situations (encounters) usually speeds up this time.

Deities answer prayers at their whim. etc.

Yes, it strains a little but it is an in fiction justification. Think about it once then just move on and never think about it again.
I would hate this. It is way too contrived and gemey for my tastes. But for people who do not feel this way it would be an easy way to get the desired number of encounters per rest.
 

They do have the opportunity to get these things though. I think 6 of 10 fighter subclasses bring an extra proficiency to the game and Rune Knight brings both an extra proficiency and advantage on multiple skills.
And those are most of the later subclasses or additions to earlier classes in later books.

The Champion, BM, and EK were printed in 2014 without any skill bonuses.

That's the whole issue.

  1. Fans who never planned to play 5th Edition had a say in 5th Edition
  2. These fans wanted fighters to have no OOC power
  3. WOTC listened to them
  4. 5e was published
  5. The actual fans of 5e wanted fighters to have OOC power and combat versatility.
  6. So every fighter subclass from XGETE onward has OOC power and combat versatility.
  7. BM was retroactively given OOC power
  8. The 2024 fighter will have OOC power and combat versatility.
 

And those are most of the later subclasses or additions to earlier classes in later books.

The Champion, BM, and EK were printed in 2014 without any skill bonuses.

That's the whole issue.

  1. Fans who never planned to play 5th Edition had a say in 5th Edition
  2. These fans wanted fighters to have no OOC power
  3. WOTC listened to them
  4. 5e was published
  5. The actual fans of 5e wanted fighters to have OOC power and combat versatility.
  6. So every fighter subclass from XGETE onward has OOC power and combat versatility.
  7. BM was retroactively given OOC power
  8. The 2024 fighter will have OOC power and combat versatility.

Well the EK has spells, which as you noted can be used OOC.

But it sounds like you are saying this has been fixed with later game changes?

Certainly the later fighter subclasses are more potent, especially OOC, than the earlier ones in general, but the three eariest subclasses seem to be those most commonly played in 5E. I see alot of Rune Knights and a fair amount of Echo Knights. I also personally play Arcane Archers a lot but no one else at my tables seems to. The rest I have only seen one or two played. If you take Battlemaster and Champion, I think I see more of those than I do all of the other subclasses combined.

I do have an idea for an Eldritch Knight I want to play. I want to play a high strength, int dump, max Charisma Drow EK who takes Fey Touched, Drow High Magic and Magic Initiate Warlock. Get a background with Charisma skills, Hex through Fey Touched and Armor of Agathys, GFB and Eldritch Blast from Magic inititate. I will need good rolls to make this work though, probably at least a 16 strength and 17 Charisma after race bonuses to start. I think that character will be pretty awesome, use all my EK spells on stuff intelligence does not matter for - PEG, Blur, Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Booming Blade, Friends .... This would be really good in one of those campaigns that lets you get a weak feat like Magic Initiate at 1st level.
 
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