D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Crimson Longinus]

Is retraining really less palatable than me bringing in my identical twin brother with all my memories and abilities except he specialized with a bow rather than longsword?

No, but I really wouldn't be cool with that either, unless there was a really cool story pitch for it.

 

[ECMO3]

The Monk has a similar design problem as the Fighter and Wizard and many other classes

What is different about Fighter and Monk is that Monk starts out powerful, falls off rapidly and then comes on again at very high levels.

Monk has a reputation for being terrible and weak, and that is largely true from level 5 until around level 10. After level 10 though they start gaining ground quickly and by level 16 the best Monks are outperforming the best fighters by quite a bit.

 

[Minigiant]

What is different about Fighter and Monk is that Monk starts out powerful, falls off rapidly and then comes on again at very high levels.

Monk has a reputation for being terrible and weak, and that is largely true from level 5 until around level 10. After level 10 though they start gaining ground quickly and by level 16 the best Monks are outperforming the best fighters by quite a bit.

due to "their mechanics don't match anything in any other media and even D&D's own lore or logic."

 

[ECMO3]

More like if you're discussing rules online you need some common ground. Rolling has a lot of variables.

I've seen good monks being played in 3.5 and 5E. But in both scenarios said players rolled very well.

Good rolls beat good build choices every time. That said low-level and high-level Monks are pretty powerful compared to other non-casters. It is the in between, where most of the game is played where they have problems.

Levels 1-3 Monks are outdamaging everyone and have some neat, albeit very limited, abilities.

At very high levels (tier 3 and 4) the better subclasses have great subclass abilities, they have a ton of ki and all of them get proficiency in all saves which is a HUGE boost at high level when enemies are throwing out DC 20+ save or suck regularly. For example, a Long Death Monk is almost impossible to down above level 11. You need something that kills them outright. Even if they are paralyzed or unconscious, they can still choose to go to 1 hp without a reaction if you take them to 0.

Monks in tier 2 are really weak with average ability rolls though.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No, but I really wouldn't be cool with that either, unless there was a really cool story pitch for it.

My parents had a massive brood to please the extra-dimensional entity that would one day possess them and drive them to engage in dangerous heroic activities. They have dedicated themselves to birth and raise children each with a slightly different skill set so they might be the vessel for the Great Hero of the Land, also known as the Plah'yur.

 

[ECMO3]

True I found my monk very good level 1-4.

It's the lack of feat support that gets you.

I had rolled stats wood elf master of fists. Barely bothered using stunning strike just flurry and tripping a lot.

Stats were something like 16, 18, 20 best 3.

The feat I took on my current Damphir Long Death Monk was Fey Touched with Hex to boost a 17 Wisdom to 18. Then I took a Wisdom ASI at level 8. I considered taking another half-feat in Shadow Touched with Cause Fear, which is very appropriate thematically, but I thought an ASI was better.

Being a Dampir also lets my fanged bite scale with the Monk Martial arts die and if I am below 50% hps the attack roll is with advantage.

As far as ki, I use stunning strike and focused aim a little bit. I almost never use flurry and I think that is a waste of ki generally. Through 8th level I think I used FOB twice total. Once to try and finish an enemy close to 0 to get the temp hps from Touch of Death (which I was unsuccessful at) and once to get as many hits as possible on an enemy caster to break concentration on hold person (which I was successful at). Most of my ki goes to patient defense or step of wind. If I was playing a different subclass I would probably be using a lot of it on a sublcass ability, but the 3rd and 6th level Long Death abilities don't use ki.

Another feat that works well on a Monk with an odd dex is Weapon Master because of the Monk martial arts die and Dedicated Weapon. I think this is the only class that really benefits from that feat.

TBH as far as other martials go, I think some feats are awesome, like Sharpshooter, but others, specifically GWM, PAM, Crusher and XBE are rated very high by many and do well in the White Room, but are not that powerful in play because they limit weapon options and make players less effective overall when the magic loot they find does not compliment their feats.

 

[Minigiant]

The feat I took on my current Damphir Long Death Monk was Fey Touched with Hex to boost a 17 Wisdom to 18. Then I took a Wisdom ASI at level 8. I considered taking another half-feat in Shadow Touched with Cause Fear, which is very appropriate thematically, but I thought an ASI was better.

Being a Dampir also lets my fanged bite scale with the Monk Martial arts die and if I am below 50% hps the attack roll is with advantage.

As far as ki, I use stunning strike and focused aim a little bit. I almost never use flurry and I think that is a waste of ki generally. Through 8th level I think I used FOB twice total. Once to try and finish an enemy close to 0 to get the temp hps from Touch of Death (which I was unsuccessful at) and once to get as many hits as possible on an enemy caster to break concentration on hold person (which I was successful at). Most of my ki goes to patient defense or step of wind. If I was playing a different subclass I would probably be using a lot of it on a sublcass ability, but the 3rd and 6th level Long Death abilities don't use ki.

Another feat that works well on a Monk with an odd dex is Weapon Master because of the Monk martial arts die and Dedicated Weapon. I think this is the only class that really benefits from that feat.

TBH as far as other martials go, I think some feats are awesome, like Sharpshooter, but others, specifically GWM, PAM, Crusher and XBE are rated very high by many and do well in the White Room, but are not that powerful in play because they limit weapon options and make players less effective overall when the magic loot they find does not compliment their feats.

But doesn't this prove that a lot of the aspects of the Marshalls in 5E were designed poorly and more or less relyon mixing and matching of the options that were "designed" based on "feel" until you get something good.

Design poorly designed classes and subsystems then pump out stronger and stronger races, feats, variants, and subclasses while adding to old feats and subclasses until the class gets to the desired power level.

 

[ECMO3]

But doesn't this prove that a lot of the aspects of the Marshalls in 5E were designed poorly and more or less relyon mixing and matching of the options that were "designed" based on "feel" until you get something good.

Design poorly designed classes and subsystems then pump out stronger and stronger races, feats, variants, and subclasses while adding to old feats and subclasses until the class gets to the desired power level.

It was a reply to a different post.

I am not going to say Monk is poorly or well designed. I am just relaying my experiences with a Monk and I am having fun, so the class design works for me. In general it works with those I have played with who played Monks as well (both as a player and a DM).

I will say I had a Monk die outright in a campaign (multiclass Monk-Bladesinger) at level 4 .... that wasn't fun, but I have had other characters die too, so it is not unique to Monks.

 

[ECMO3]

We don't really know how brains work in a lot of ways.

We don't how brains work.

But as expert 5E players we do know that if taken outside of your body by a qualified Mind Flayer, your brain can both devour other peoples' brains and move into their skull and take control of their body.

 

[Zardnaar]

The feat I took on my current Damphir Long Death Monk was Fey Touched with Hex to boost a 17 Wisdom to 18. Then I took a Wisdom ASI at level 8. I considered taking another half-feat in Shadow Touched with Cause Fear, which is very appropriate thematically, but I thought an ASI was better.

Being a Dampir also lets my fanged bite scale with the Monk Martial arts die and if I am below 50% hps the attack roll is with advantage.

As far as ki, I use stunning strike and focused aim a little bit. I almost never use flurry and I think that is a waste of ki generally. Through 8th level I think I used FOB twice total. Once to try and finish an enemy close to 0 to get the temp hps from Touch of Death (which I was unsuccessful at) and once to get as many hits as possible on an enemy caster to break concentration on hold person (which I was successful at). Most of my ki goes to patient defense or step of wind. If I was playing a different subclass I would probably be using a lot of it on a sublcass ability, but the 3rd and 6th level Long Death abilities don't use ki.

Another feat that works well on a Monk with an odd dex is Weapon Master because of the Monk martial arts die and Dedicated Weapon. I think this is the only class that really benefits from that feat.

TBH as far as other martials go, I think some feats are awesome, like Sharpshooter, but others, specifically GWM, PAM, Crusher and XBE are rated very high by many and do well in the White Room, but are not that powerful in play because they limit weapon options and make players less effective overall when the magic loot they find does not compliment their feats.

Those feats didn't exist back when I played it.
Reason I spammed flurry was because the trip attacks on the subclass.