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D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

Quickleaf

Legend
I think D&D 5e should have done like True20 and let the players choose their own class features, let them build their own characters outside of defined archetypes. At least it would give the players some more variety, the game will always fail compared to some others building the character concepts of the players, on the other hand it has the thrill of leveling your archetype and acquire new powers.

I think that's a great design approach...as a rules option or for a different RPG besides D&D. What you see as a weakness of D&D – the "rigid" classes – is actually one of its strengths, particularly when drawing in new players and facilitating play across games (e.g. dropping in at other tables, rotating player base, convention games, organized play). The classes have history, and provide a recognizable starting point.

Now for a hardcore gamer like you or others of us on ENWorld? Absolutely, some sort of supplement or Unearthed Arcana down the road providing an option (IIRC there was one in 3e) for a 3-class True20-esque system would be awesome.

Coming from that point of view I have no problem, with D&D I usually build my character concept from the class I want to try, first the class and powers and later the concept, if I play Hero system for example I buy the characteristics I need to configure the character I have in my head. That's me, and we have what we have, if there are only 3 subclasses instead of XXX what can I do?

But if I wanted more variety from the class in my opinion the subclasses of the wizard and the cleric have less differences compared to the differences between a Champion, Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight. Appart from a pair of features and bonuses for the school the differences will depend more on the spell selection, but you can have a lot of spells prepared and you will end using a lot of times the same ones, sleep, shield, etc, you could have more variation using a sorcerer if you choose different spells because you would be enforced to use them.
The fighter can have a more distinct gameplay from the start if you choose DEX or STR and a different fighting style, then we have the subclasses, one adds spells and maneuvers to use them, the other lots of different maneuvers, I could make a duellist, a leader, an archer that doesn't fail and all of them would be very different, and then we have the simplicity of the Champion.

Like I mentioned in my reply above to [MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION], limiting subclass to ONLY technique/specialization in how this character fights is...well, it's a very narrow conception of what a subclass does.

That's actually one thing the PHB is silent on, but was actively discussed during he D&DNext Playtest – what is a subclass supposed to represent? It is a technique? Is it a secret society? Is it a cultural identity?
 

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dco

Guest
I, too, enjoyed spending an hour-and-a-half to design a monster that was going to die in three rounds of combat :p
I could spend the same time creating a monster with the 3e as I do now, but at least I saw more value in the books when they dedicated the time to more things than a pair of combat values.
 

Corwin

Explorer
[MENTION=6802951]"empty calorie" subclass design / class-as-mechanics-not-identity philosophy. OTOH, I embrace the "recognizable archetype" subclass design / class-as-an-identity philosophy.
If you are going to buy in to the unfavorable descriptor for one side, why not both? Maybe you should have volunteered to refer to your preference as "forced narrative" subclass design? Or something like that? Fair's fair, after all.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Mostly theory crafting actually, I rarely get to play and when I do I usually do not use powerful builds or online character guides. I see what my players get up to though. I have played 3 PCs in 5E, a way of the fist monk, valor bard and a light cleric and only the light cleric would I regard as a "power build" and I played that PC in 2014 so it was an accident in terms of how good it was.

Oh I briefly played a Paladin as well but only to level 4.

Yeah but you DM games like a madman! You probably have clocked more hours of DMing that any 5 players posting in this thread :)
 

Cyrinishad

Explorer
I think that's a great design approach...as a rules option or for a different RPG besides D&D. What you see as a weakness of D&D – the "rigid" classes – is actually one of its strengths, particularly when drawing in new players and facilitating play across games (e.g. dropping in at other tables, rotating player base, convention games, organized play). The classes have history, and provide a recognizable starting point.

Now for a hardcore gamer like you or others of us on ENWorld? Absolutely, some sort of supplement or Unearthed Arcana down the road providing an option (IIRC there was one in 3e) for a 3-class True20-esque system would be awesome.

Coming from that point of view I have no problem, with D&D I usually build my character concept from the class I want to try, first the class and powers and later the concept, if I play Hero system for example I buy the characteristics I need to configure the character I have in my head. That's me, and we have what we have, if there are only 3 subclasses instead of XXX what can I do?



Like I mentioned in my reply above to @Cap'n Kobold, limiting subclass to ONLY technique/specialization in how this character fights is...well, it's a very narrow conception of what a subclass does.

That's actually one thing the PHB is silent on, but was actively discussed during he D&DNext Playtest – what is a subclass supposed to represent? It is a technique? Is it a secret society? Is it a cultural identity?

I agree 100% with Quickleaf's assessment on Classes being a strength of the D&D system... Without it I wouldn't have been able to get any of my new players into the game. A wide open blank slate with tons of options is great for seasoned veterans, terrible for newbies. And I would include people that have picked up the dice once again after not having played an RPG for a long time in the newbie category... The class system as it stands now, has helped me get people started with new PCs faster than ever before.

Regarding sub-classes, I see things much the same way, essentially improving on the Prestige Class concept from 3e... It can be a fighting style, or a faction affiliation, or a multi-class mechanism, or a cultural/regional/racial concept... Keeping it broad maximizes design possibilities.
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
If you are going to buy in to the unfavorable descriptor for one side, why not both? Maybe you should have volunteered to refer to your preference as "forced narrative" subclass design? Or something like that? Fair's fair, after all.

I was using language that came naturally to me. Yes, I agree it's a negative assessment. I'd rather use a neutral or favorable descriptor for "empty calorie" but one didn't readily come to mind. What would you recommend?
 

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dco

Guest
Like I mentioned in my reply above to @Cap'n Kobold, limiting subclass to ONLY technique/specialization in how this character fights is...well, it's a very narrow conception of what a subclass does.

That's actually one thing the PHB is silent on, but was actively discussed during he D&DNext Playtest – what is a subclass supposed to represent? It is a technique? Is it a secret society? Is it a cultural identity?
Yes, I'm with you, this kind of system has its strengths,
But all classes and subclasses are done like that, at least for me. I find less differences for wizards, if I choose the abjurer some spells will be cheaper to copy, I will have a limited barrier and some bonuses, I can play an evoker that cast the same spells, it will only be a bit worse doing the same things.

I don't know, but that was more interesting then, now we should talk about the end results. Personally I like how open the fighter class can be, for example if someone wants a hunter, ok, I point them to the ranger hunter, and tell them a fighter or an assassin could also be good representations choosing a good background and suitable skills, better if they don't want a class with spells and I'm only using the PHB. That's great, you can design a lot of different warriors, if I want a holy champion that excels with his bow the paladin suddenly fails and I find less value in their subclasses, because they only bring me some different auras and spells and the channel divinity. At least the battlemaster compared to the Champions was giving me some cool maneuvers instead of small variations of similar powers.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You embrace the "empty calorie" subclass design / class-as-mechanics-not-identity philosophy. OTOH, I embrace the "recognizable archetype" subclass design / class-as-an-identity philosophy.
The perplexing thing is, D&D does have significant reason to use either (or even both, in a sense).

It makes sense to design a class based on a recognizable archetype(s) from genre, it's a starting point that informs and inspires the design process, and it helps the game to model, or at least evoke the feel of, the genre, as well.

It also makes sense to use a class in a build (especially an MC build), based on what it does, rather than the initial inspiration, if you have a different concept than the genre archetype in question in mind, that happens to share many of the same abilities.

Hmm... I guess that designer perspective vs player perspective.

Either I've been unclear or you've misunderstood. The reason I think the "CORE FOUR" classes all merit more subclasses is because those classes – cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard – encompass the greatest breadth of concepts.
Maybe if you swap in something more like the genericized 2e 'Priest' for Cleric and Warlock for Wizard - since the neo-Vancian wizard & traditional heal-bot cleric represent a very odd and narrow range of concepts, not even all that evident in the genre. ;) For that matter, the Rogue is the genericized/rehabilitated(npi), so less narrowly defined, 'Thief' of the classic game.

They are, though, the oldest, most hallowed of D&D classes.

It's absolutely NOT numbers for the sake of blind numerical symmetry.
Symmetry isn't all bad, it can make you think, sometimes. For instance, if they hadn't been recoiling so violently from the Source/Role 'grid-filling' thing, they might have noticed that they'd produced a game that was almost all spellcasters. Or, at least, might have stopped to think about it.

What IS important to me is the radically different priority the designers gave to "many subclasses for clerics & wizards." For example, I could easily imagine a wizard with just 3 subclasses (apologies for the rudimentary names): Blaster, Controller, and Scholar.
Nod. Not traditional, so a non-starter in the context of 5e, but logical.

The Cavalier is inspired by the AD&D class of the same name from Gary's original Unearthed Arcana.
"Knight" just sounds more familiar. Also, the 3.5 & Essentials 'Knight' might've been a good place to look.
The Destined Hero archetype is inspired by young adult literature and is designed to be both simpler and more responsive to player creativity than the other archetypes.
Oooh, sounds like a cool idea.
Definitely going to have to give it another look...


See, I find the distinction between Sorcerer and Wizard really weak because it's mainly mechanistic in nature. Yes, there's interesting flavor writing to the sorcerer but it barely plays out – IOW, the Sorcerer mechanics don't really evoke that flavor of "born of magic, magic in the veins" very well.
It's not that mechanistic in degree, either. At least in 3.x it was a significant mechanical difference, even if they were using the same spells. At least in 4e, they were using completely different spell lists & were of different roles (the Blaster and Controller you posited, above, approximately). In 5e, the Sorcerer gets no unique spells and everyone casts spontaneously, it's tough hanging the whole magic-in-the-blood concept on metamagic.

I understand that players who were really into D&D during the 3e and 4e eras are more comfortable with purely mechanically differentiated classes, and there is a whole group of people who want to shift D&D towards a class-less or class-lite system. But the downside of that it creates a barrier to entry for new gamers.
Wait! The downside is it's unfamiliar to returning D&Ders. New players have no vested interest in the hairs we're splitting which-came-first-the-archetype-or-the-concept. How classes are differentiated is something you find on close analysis. On the surface, they have different names and do different things, they're different.

One of the reasons 5e has done so well with bringing new people to the game :), I think, is that the designers reduced many of those barriers.
I think a significant one is eschewing the rapid publication model that RPGs had used since the 90s, and presenting a stable, if tiny, shelf foot-print. Another major one is attracting and retaining enthusiastic support from the existing fanbase, which translates to experienced players, and especially, experienced DMs, available to teach the game.

But new people don't try the game because of any nuances of how classes are differentiated. They try it because they've heard of it, and, these days, probably quite often, because they were in a game store checking out the current board-game craze....


They could do the same for the fighter's fighting styles, for example, turning "Great Weapon Fighter" into a subclass and attaching additional flavor to it, ... Why I think they didn't do that, as opposed to the spell schools where they did do that, ...because the fighter is based in reality more, or at least something we can relate to more. That's why fighting styles don't make good sub-classes – because they are just expressions of a specialization/technique, rather than an expression of a character.
Another major difference is that choice of Wizard Tradition doesn't close off the spells of the other traditions. Before you apply style, there's not much to choose among weapons (even after you do, there's not a whole lot), but once you have a style, you're kinda locked in. So a style-based sub-class would be very narrow and option-poor, even by traditional fighter standards.

I think that's a great design approach...as a rules option or for a different RPG besides D&D. What you see as a weakness of D&D – the "rigid" classes – is actually one of its strengths
D&D is a classic game, beloved for its flaws at least as much as for its strengths.

Classes /do/ serve a purpose, but that purpose can be served as well, for new players, by sample characters, and more generally, by 'package deals' in a more flexible build system. It just 'wouldn't be D&D' to the established fanbase.

particularly when drawing in new players and facilitating play across games. The classes have history, and provide a recognizable starting point.
History that is meaningless to those new players.

If all the extant D&D fans (and all their books) were just Raptured by a deified Gary Gygax, and WotC put out "D&D" with all the content from RuneQuest or Savage Worlds or whatever between the covers, it'd be exactly as successful at attracting new players. Heck, maybe more successful at retaining those new players, depending on the choice of 'whatever.'

That's actually one thing the PHB is silent on, but was actively discussed during he D&DNext Playtest – what is a subclass supposed to represent? It is a technique? Is it a secret society? Is it a cultural identity?
It seems to be different for each class.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I could spend the same time creating a monster with the 3e as I do now, but at least I saw more value in the books when they dedicated the time to more things than a pair of combat values.

Like what, specifically? Are you saying you build your monsters in 3e with non-combat values? Do you have examples, and then can you answer why? I'm assuming most monsters won't be encountered out of combat, so that seems a wasted effort to me.

I'll give you this though. You must be way more skilled than I am. I can't create a 3e monster as fast as I can create a 5e one. Not even close, if I'm designing that 3e monster with classes and levels. 5e gives me one generic chart to look at and that's it. Then some minor modifications here and there to fit what I want. Takes me way longer in 3e to create monsters. Just the varying levels of attack bonuses, varying AC values, and varying damages took way longer.
 

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