D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

[Warmaster Horus]

95% if you ignore all the agency and flavour in other classes and subclasses. Lets face it For the most part the Fighter only gets to do HP damage on par with many and the occasional ability check when the problem at hand is not being overridden by magic or another classes specialised ability. This is just as a good an argument as Fighters don't need abilities like styles, stances, maneuvers, etc because they can describe what they want to do and roll for it; the answer to which is guess which class also gets to do that which is all of them. Going back to flavour the designers have stated that class and subclass are suppose to bring flavour and tell a story which the PHB fighter + subclasses do not, I agree with the designers assessment on this.

Fighters are built for one thing - fighting. That's their raison d'etre. If you want more flavor then bring it in via the expanded ASIs the Fighter gets or MC. But most will use theirs to be much more consistent fighting machines than the other martial classes.

I play a lot of AL modules and interactives. Opportunities for rests are few and far between. My long-rest-dependent paladin has to really conserve his smites through the game. My fighter on the other hand gets his specials back on the much-more-common short rest and is more consistently effective in Tier III (3 or 4 attacks over 2 per turn adds up). So I'd say the 'fighters are not any better than another class' when it comes to combat effectiveness starts to depart once the fighter goes to 3 attacks. Heck, my 11th level archer had to trade for a Bag of Holding to carry ammo because he was emptying his quiver in one or two combats.

Utility - yeah, you're probably not going to see many skill-centric fighters. My non-Cha fighters are always blowing their Cha rolls, but so what? That's half the fun. If I had wanted a social character I would of made one.
Agency - How do other classes have any more or less agency than others in D&D?
Identity - Almost entirely up to the player and role playing over any special class-based doo-dad.

 

[guachi]

I'll agree that the fighter (on paper) has too many abilities arriving late. I think that's largely because his greatest asset in the mid-levels are his extra ASIs at 6th and 14th level (especially 14th level).

If you play with feats 6th level is the perfect time for a fighter to take something as awesome as the Paladin's save aura ability. The major design problem I see is not only have they offloaded cool fighter things to ASIs but they just have repeats of abilities for so many levels.

The Fighter level advancement consists of 6 ASIs, 3 Extra Attacks, 3 Indomitables, and 2 Action Surges. It's all rather plain. I love that Fighters get two extra ASIs but it really puts a lot of the work on the two extra ASIs to make a fighter really interesting.

 

[Warpiglet]

Will people learn to read IT IS NOT ABOUT DAMAGE BUT ABOUT UTILITY, AGENCY AND IDENTITY. The fighter sacrifices all that for supposed damage. We are not asking for more damage but for the adding of utility that was sacrificed and nothing given in return and agency which the Fighter never had due to mostly "tradition". Looking forward to someone twisting this back to wanting more damage.

Wow. I promise to learn to read if you do first. For God's sake, take a deep breath. I hope you have fun playing the game and keep playing the game. I am sorry you dislike fighters.

Half of what you quoted speaks to utility. I am looking at it as I type this.

Also, read the OP's post. When I say that, I mean each point and you will see the OP referenced combat ability and expectations as well as utility.

There were several parts to his post and expectations and utility were among them.

1. I think that the fighter meets expectations

2. I think with some creativity you can increase utility

3. Some people want tons of utility. They play wizards.

4. IT IS ABOUT DAMAGE TOO

5. Not sure why the hostility. May have something to do with reading comprehension. But despite your conviction, I do not think it is mine.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sacrosanct]

Two additional observations:

1. Just because the champion may seem plain, that means it's WAD (working as designed). There are a lot of gamers that want that. They don't want a class with fiddly bits and a lot of resource management. Sometimes I get the idea from folks that unless every class in the PHB has plenty of options, that somehow means the game or class is broken. Not at all. Not every class is designed to cater to you. Some are meant to cater to people with different playstyles. (or what lowkey 13 said)

2. It seems with the second update, whenever someone on my IL is quoted, it no longer shows their statement, but shows "This person is on you IL list". I LOVE that.

 

[Warpiglet]

Two additional observations:

1. Just because the champion may seem plain, that means it's WAD (working as designed). There are a lot of gamers that want that. They don't want a class with fiddly bits and a lot of resource management. Sometimes I get the idea from folks that unless every class in the PHB has plenty of options, that somehow means the game or class is broken. Not at all. Not every class is designed to cater to you. Some are meant to cater to people with different playstyles. (or what lowkey 13 said)

2. It seems with the second update, whenever someone on my IL is quoted, it no longer shows their statement, but shows "This person is on you IL list". I LOVE that.

Its funny, this variety thing...

I like spell casters that fight reasonably well. But on occasion, I want to play someone who throws down. At those times I think about playing a champion. It has not happened yet, but hopefully one day I will be able to do so.

I believe I can create a story with a champion. I usually like more dials to turn and more options and utility, but occasionally I am glad there is another option. I just have to remember to grapple, shove and do more than hack and slash at those times.

 

[LapBandit]

So from the arguments that the fighter is just fine my understanding is that the arguments used hinge on:

1. 11th level they get a third attack.
2. You could Action Surge.
3. Battlemasters are short rest dependent and that might matter.
4. ASIs.

Not very convincing.
Having played numerous fighters, I'd trade each extra ASI away for abilities no other class gets to make the fighter more unique/versatile/potent in some way.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Having played numerous fighters, I'd trade each extra ASI away for abilities no other class gets to make the fighter more unique/versatile/potent in some way.

Well, you can, if you play with feats. All else being equal (meaning you use your core ASI on the same things every other class spends their ASIs on), you have two extra they don't get, so you have two additional features that you can use feats for that no one else gets. And personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose what those two extra abilities are as opposed to a hard baked 6th level ability that reads something like, "When you reach 6th level, if you take an attack action on your turn and are wielding a shield, you can use a bonus action to shove the creature. Additionally, if you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's bonus to your Dex based saving throw. And finally, if you have to take a Dex saving throw for half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage."

Related to that, for those that don't think the class has any out of combat utility, those same two EXTRA feats can be used for any feat, including those with a utility focus. It's basically your choice in how you want to build your class, and I find more choice to be a better thing, as a general rule.

 

[Ashkelon]

I've noticed a number of these problems. For me the big issues with the fighter are as follows.

1. From levels 1-10 the fighters combat capabilities are no better than other warrior classes. In fact, it is often worse. Blackguard paladins get charisma to damage and smites. Rangers get hunters mark and other +dX damage features. Barbarian has rages and reckless attack. Hell, even the warlock can deal comparable damage with hex + their new smites. The fighter has action surge, which does give great burst potential, but doesn't match the round by round damage capability of the other classes from levels 1 to 10.

2. The fighter has nothing truly unique. Action surge provides more of something everyone can already do. Battle master maneuvers all produce effects that are outclassed by most cantrips. As far as combat utility or battlefield control goes, the fighter doesn't provide more than any other warrior class. On the other hand paladin smites get more and more powerful with level. Barbarian rage makes them dramatically more tanks than any other class. Rangers have unique spells only they can learn. Rogues have cunning action. Even multiple attacks aren't truly unique. They are merely a means to provide fighters with additional damage, they don't give the fighter new functionality. Not to mention that warlocks get the same number with eldritch blast (and get their 4th attack 3 levels earlier).

3. The fighter gives up all of his non combat utility in order to be "the best" at combat. Other classes all have more non combat utility. The fighter has no class features devoted to any pillar other than combat. That is terrible design given that from levels 1-10 the other classes are slightly better than the fighter in combat and that from levels 11-20 those classes are only slightly worse in combat.

4. The fighter doesn't really come into its own until 14th level and above. At level 14 it has its 3rd attack and its second bonus feat. The problem here is that most games don't get to level 10+, let alone 14+, so for most games the fighter will not have the features that people give praise to the fighter design in 5e (more attacks than everyone and 2 extra feats).

 

[Sacrosanct]

3. The fighter gives up all of his non combat utility in order to be "the best" at combat. Other classes all have more non combat utility. The fighter has no class features devoted to any pillar other than combat. .

See my post above. This is objectively not true, because they can spend their core ASIs to boost core class features like every other class. However, they get two EXTRA feats that can be used for out of combat utility above and beyond everything else. Just because they didn't hard bake dungeon delver, or magic initiate into the class, doesn't mean it doesn't exist because it does. You have the choice, and the two EXTRA ASIs are hard built into the class. The class feature is literally "here are two extra options that you can add to this class, however you want." And since they aren't limited to combat only, then in fact the fighter does have a class feature that can be non combat related.