FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Yup. It only benefits allies who are in Fireball formation.
Not that it's never worth cozying up to the Paladin for the bonus--but sometimes it's a real dilemma whether to do so or not.
D&D 5E The Fighter Problem
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Yup. It only benefits allies who are in Fireball formation.
Not that it's never worth cozying up to the Paladin for the bonus--but sometimes it's a real dilemma whether to do so or not.
Flamestrike
Legend
Its not a wash at all. Fighters are better at the -5/+10 because they tend to get more attacks than other warrior classes, and have just as much access to easy advantage (push prone w Str athletics, tripping strike, feinting attack etc).
Im just saying that for a bloke that complains about -5/+10 are wrecking encounters, its a little weird to be saying (in the same breath) that fighters are crap. They get at least as much oomph out of those feats at 1-10 and exponentially more by the time they hit 20.
Thats how youre supposed to roll. 6ish encounters per day, with the occasional longer, and occasional shorter day, and 2ish short rests in there (sometimes more, sometimes less... and not always in proportion to the number of encounters either).
If youre sticking to that paradigm t I find it weird that youre having a problem with fighters.
Care to pick a level and we can compare a Barbaraian vs a Fighter of the same level for effectiveness over a 6 encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day?
Zardnaar
Legend
Its a dangerous assumption about fightets getting more attacks at least until higher levels.A hunter ranger can often get more attacks in than a fighter.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I can kind of see people's points:
Action surge is "do what you already do more"
Indomitable is "do what you already do more"
Fighting styles are "do what almost every martial class also does"
Extra attacks are "do what you already do more"
Most of the feats will get spent on "do that thing that every martial class will do... but a bit earlier" OR "do something that another class already does".
If anything, second wind is the most unique feature that fighters have... and it's pretty similar to what most spellcasters get.
All up... fighters don't do 'fightery' things.
What fighters are missing is threads! And since threads are supposed to have minimal mechanical impact, we could just add them into any level without worrying that we're disrupting anything.
And to start that off... we need a list of 'fightery' things from film and literature, that are not combat related.
Action surge is "do what you already do more"
Indomitable is "do what you already do more"
Fighting styles are "do what almost every martial class also does"
Extra attacks are "do what you already do more"
Most of the feats will get spent on "do that thing that every martial class will do... but a bit earlier" OR "do something that another class already does".
If anything, second wind is the most unique feature that fighters have... and it's pretty similar to what most spellcasters get.
All up... fighters don't do 'fightery' things.
What fighters are missing is threads! And since threads are supposed to have minimal mechanical impact, we could just add them into any level without worrying that we're disrupting anything.
And to start that off... we need a list of 'fightery' things from film and literature, that are not combat related.
This is what Mike Mearls told us the fighter would be like in April of 2012. I feel he failed miserably at achieving most of these design goals, and that is what I feel the fighter problem is.
Fighter Design Goals
The fighter is one of my favorite classes, so I’m a little biased. I also think it is a class that has always suffered a bit compared to the spellcasters in the game. Fighters represent the most iconic fantasy heroes, and it is perhaps the most popular class in the game. Therefore, it’s important that we get the fighter right.
You can take a look at last week’s article to get a sense of our general approach to the classes. Here are the main points we’re looking at for the fighter.
1. The Fighter Is the Best at . . . Fighting!
This might sound like an obvious point, but the fighter should be the best character in a fight. Other classes might have nifty tricks, powerful spells, and other abilities, but when it’s time to put down a monster without dying in the process, the fighter should be our best class. A magic sword might make you better in a fight, but a fighter of the same level is still strictly better. Perhaps a spell such as haste lets you attack more often, but the fighter is still either making more attacks or his or her attacks are more accurate or powerful.
2. The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic
Fighters master mundane tactics and weapon skills. They don’t need spells or some sort of external source of magical power to succeed. Fighters do stuff that is within the limits of mundane mortals. They don’t reverse gravity or shoot beams of energy.
3. The Fighter Exists in a World of Myth, Fantasy, and Legend
Keeping in mind the point above, we also have to remember that while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army. You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with such overwhelming skill that none can hope to stand against them.
4. The Fighter Is Versatile
The fighter is skilled with all weapons. The best archer, jouster, and swordmaster in the realm are all fighters. A monk can match a fighter’s skill when it comes to unarmed combat, and rangers and paladins are near a fighter’s skill level, but the fighter is typically in a class by itself regardless of weapon.
5. The Fighter Is the Toughest Character
The fighter gets the most hit points and is the most resilient character. A fighter’s skill extends to defense, allowing the class to wear the heaviest armor and use the best shields. The fighter’s many hit points and high AC renders many monsters’ attacks powerless.
6. A High-Level Fighter and a High-Level Wizard Are Equal
Too often in D&D, the high-level fighter is the flunky to a high-level wizard. It’s all too easy for combinations of spells to make the wizard a far more potent enemy or character, especially if a wizard can unleash his or her spells in rapid succession. A wizard might annihilate a small army of orcs with a volley of fireballs and cones of cold. The fighter does the same sword blow by sword blow, taking down waves of orcs each round. Balancing the classes at high levels is perhaps the highest priority for the fighter, and attaining balance is something that we must do to make D&D fit in with fantasy, myth, and legend. Even if a wizard unleashes every spell at his or her disposal at a fighter, the fighter absorbs the punishment, throws off the effects, and keeps on fighting
Fighter Design Goals
The fighter is one of my favorite classes, so I’m a little biased. I also think it is a class that has always suffered a bit compared to the spellcasters in the game. Fighters represent the most iconic fantasy heroes, and it is perhaps the most popular class in the game. Therefore, it’s important that we get the fighter right.
You can take a look at last week’s article to get a sense of our general approach to the classes. Here are the main points we’re looking at for the fighter.
1. The Fighter Is the Best at . . . Fighting!
This might sound like an obvious point, but the fighter should be the best character in a fight. Other classes might have nifty tricks, powerful spells, and other abilities, but when it’s time to put down a monster without dying in the process, the fighter should be our best class. A magic sword might make you better in a fight, but a fighter of the same level is still strictly better. Perhaps a spell such as haste lets you attack more often, but the fighter is still either making more attacks or his or her attacks are more accurate or powerful.
2. The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic
Fighters master mundane tactics and weapon skills. They don’t need spells or some sort of external source of magical power to succeed. Fighters do stuff that is within the limits of mundane mortals. They don’t reverse gravity or shoot beams of energy.
3. The Fighter Exists in a World of Myth, Fantasy, and Legend
Keeping in mind the point above, we also have to remember that while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army. You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with such overwhelming skill that none can hope to stand against them.
4. The Fighter Is Versatile
The fighter is skilled with all weapons. The best archer, jouster, and swordmaster in the realm are all fighters. A monk can match a fighter’s skill when it comes to unarmed combat, and rangers and paladins are near a fighter’s skill level, but the fighter is typically in a class by itself regardless of weapon.
5. The Fighter Is the Toughest Character
The fighter gets the most hit points and is the most resilient character. A fighter’s skill extends to defense, allowing the class to wear the heaviest armor and use the best shields. The fighter’s many hit points and high AC renders many monsters’ attacks powerless.
6. A High-Level Fighter and a High-Level Wizard Are Equal
Too often in D&D, the high-level fighter is the flunky to a high-level wizard. It’s all too easy for combinations of spells to make the wizard a far more potent enemy or character, especially if a wizard can unleash his or her spells in rapid succession. A wizard might annihilate a small army of orcs with a volley of fireballs and cones of cold. The fighter does the same sword blow by sword blow, taking down waves of orcs each round. Balancing the classes at high levels is perhaps the highest priority for the fighter, and attaining balance is something that we must do to make D&D fit in with fantasy, myth, and legend. Even if a wizard unleashes every spell at his or her disposal at a fighter, the fighter absorbs the punishment, throws off the effects, and keeps on fighting
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I am sure Mearls would backstep from this quicker than any politician.
D
dco
Guest
¿¿???
Fighting style, more choices than Paladin and Ranger, Barbarian doesn't get a fighting style.
Second wind, heal with a bonus action / short rest.
Action surge / short rest.
Extra ability score improvement / Feat
Indomitable (1 use).
3 subclass features, same as the barbarian, the ranger and the paladin get 2.
I've seen a monk dealing more damage at low levels, he has more attacks, I've also seen him going down far more times with the same share of enemies, this means he doesn't attack unless another player helps him, this can mean another player not attacking, wasting resources, more attacks to other people, etc.
Sacrosanct
Legend
It would only be a wash if the fighter got the same amount of feats at the same time as those other classes. But they don't, which is what we keep saying (at least a half dozen people in this thread alone). If the fighter gets two feats when the ranger or paladin only has one, it very much is NOT a wash because the fighter has double. I seriously have a hard time with your logic here (and not just you, but everyone who says since every other class can get a feat, it's the same).
It would be like this. There are 2 dozen cars to choose from. You get to chose 2. I get to choose 4. So because we can choose from the same car list it's a wash? Of course not, because I have twice as many cars, some of those allowing me to do all kinds of things you can't do with just 2.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Sorry if I am repeating myself with this one. I am still trying to refine the idea.
The one major change I'd give the fighter is more fighting styles which go only on their list of fighting styles. In fact write them with fighter level requirements, something like this:
Knock Down: Requirements: Fighter Level 3+. Special: Any character that meets this Fighting Style requirements may choose this Fighting Style at any new level, as a replacement for an existing Fighting Style. Once chosen, the character loses all benefits of their previous Fighting Style. Benefits: A character with this Fighting Style may Shove an adjacent target as a bonus action on their turn.
Come up with a bunch of those. In fact come up with more powerful ones with higher level requirements. No errata needed, nobody has to use them as they'll be in an optional book, but can address some of these issues.
More feats would also benefit the fighter without the need for errata.
The one major change I'd give the fighter is more fighting styles which go only on their list of fighting styles. In fact write them with fighter level requirements, something like this:
Knock Down: Requirements: Fighter Level 3+. Special: Any character that meets this Fighting Style requirements may choose this Fighting Style at any new level, as a replacement for an existing Fighting Style. Once chosen, the character loses all benefits of their previous Fighting Style. Benefits: A character with this Fighting Style may Shove an adjacent target as a bonus action on their turn.
Come up with a bunch of those. In fact come up with more powerful ones with higher level requirements. No errata needed, nobody has to use them as they'll be in an optional book, but can address some of these issues.
More feats would also benefit the fighter without the need for errata.
Zardnaar
Legend
No its true but there are class abilities better than a feat imho.
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