D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[pemerton]

See my post right above yours for where I get it from. You are looking at fluff. I'm quoting the RAW.

"Copying that spell into your spell book involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spell book using your own notation."

"VERBAL (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."

"SOMATIC (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."

These aren't variable things. You practice the spell until you understand the specific sounds and gestures required. If you vary those, you aren't casting the spell. The spell will be the same each time a particular wizard casts the spell. It's not going to be longer this time and shorter next time. It won't have these gestures this time and those other gestures next time.

Counterspell has a somatic component only. It may or may not be a forceful gesticulation. It is probably not an intricate set of gestures. Nothing in the rules you've stated says that it will or won't interrupt the casting of another spell.

If a table took the view that counterspelling while casting requires a second free hand, thus ensuring that the caser has free use of at lesat one hand to perform the gestures of their primary spell I think that would be quite reasonable. That's how Doctor Strange would normally do it.

I think it would be equally reasonable to allow doing it all with one hand, but requiring an INT (Arcana) check against an appropriate DC. I'm sure that Doctor Strange could do it with one hand in a pinch.

 

[Maxperson]

Counterspell has a somatic component only. It may or may not be a forceful gesticulation. It is probably not an intricate set of gestures. Nothing in the rules you've stated says that it will or won't interrupt the casting of another spell.

The discussion you stepped into there was whether or not the spell is cast uniformly each time the caster casts it. Make it a forceful gesture and it will be the same exact gesture taking the same amount of time to perform each time the caster casts it. Same if it's some other somatic method. There will be no variation, because the spell is precise in what it requires.

If you break it up due to casting your own counterspell in the middle of your original casting, you are no longer casting the original spell precisely as required. The game is silent on whether or not this will ruin the spell, but a DM is well within his rights to make the reasonable ruling that it does ruin it.

If a table took the view that counterspelling while casting requires a second free hand, thus ensuring that the caser has free use of at lesat one hand to perform the gestures of their primary spell I think that would be quite reasonable. That's how Doctor Strange would normally do it.

If you do both gestures simultaneously, they will mess up the original spell which requires a precise somatic that includes nothing else. The original spell isn't going to know the difference between you screwing up the gesture by using the other hand or you casting a spell with the other hand. Either way what you are doing is not the precise somatic of the original spell.

I think it would be equally reasonable to allow doing it all with one hand, but requiring an INT (Arcana) check against an appropriate DC. I'm sure that Doctor Strange could do it with one hand in a pinch.

I think that would be a reasonable ruling as well. An arcana check to keep the spells separate seems reasonable. Mess that up and both spells are wasted as the somatic components for each will mess up the other. Either of those two reasonable ways a DM chooses to rule it would not make me unhappy.

 

[Mort]

The discussion you stepped into there was whether or not the spell is cast uniformly each time the caster casts it. Make it a forceful gesture and it will be the same exact gesture taking the same amount of time to perform each time the caster casts it. Same if it's some other somatic method. There will be no variation, because the spell is precise in what it requires.

If you break it up due to casting your own counterspell in the middle of your original casting, you are no longer casting the original spell precisely as required. The game is silent on whether or not this will ruin the spell, but a DM is well within his rights to make the reasonable ruling that it does ruin it.

If you do both gestures simultaneously, they will mess up the original spell which requires a precise somatic that includes nothing else. The original spell isn't going to know the difference between you screwing up the gesture by using the other hand or you casting a spell with the other hand. Either way what you are doing is not the precise somatic of the original spell.

I think that would be a reasonable ruling as well. An arcana check to keep the spells separate seems reasonable. Mess that up and both spells are wasted as the somatic components for each will mess up the other. Either of those two reasonable ways a DM chooses to rule it would not make me unhappy.

I think requiring an arcana check is a reasonable compromise, but as I think counterspell is balanced, as is, I personally wouldn't implement the requirement.

 

[hawkeyefan]

"Copying that spell into your spell book involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spell book using your own notation."

"VERBAL (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."

"SOMATIC (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."

Again, none of this contradicts my point.

You've bolded some passages that support your insistence that there is one way, but those bits only support, they don't prove. And there are plenty of other vague bits that leave it all open to interpretation.

I understand your interpretation. I've even paid you the courtesy of not telling you your interpretation is "wrong" or anything else like that. All I am saying is that there is no one way.

And, even if there is, we're all free to change it... just as you plan on doing with Counterspell.

These aren't variable things. You practice the spell until you understand the specific sounds and gestures required. If you vary those, you aren't casting the spell. The spell will be the same each time a particular wizard casts the spell. It's not going to be longer this time and shorter next time. It won't have these gestures this time and those other gestures next time.

Sure they're variable. You really take some leaps to the conclusion you'd like here.

The "unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it" implies that written spells are specific to individual wizards. The bit about practicing and then transcribing "using your own notation" also implies that. It sounds like everyone has their own version of Fireball and so on.

The PHB also says that the spells in your spellbook "reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as the intellectual breakthroughs you have about the nature of the multiverse".

The bit about sounds, pitch, and resonance is about how it's not the words that matter, but the way they're said. It doesn't say that there can't be more than one way to do so. It also points out how the verbal components set the threads of magic in motion.... it doesn't say that all spells are absolutely complete upon verbalization.

And the somatic section... just the word "might" removes the certainty you're claiming. And somatic gestures in and of themselves indicate that different people can perform them at different speeds... just as with any other physical activity.

I don't see anything here that contradicts the idea that different casters may cast spells differently, or that there can't be more than one version of spells.

I'll also add that wasn't even my main point about the counterspell example.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure they're variable. You really take some leaps to the conclusion you'd like here.

Not variable with a specific caster. They could be variable between different casters. Not in the amount of time taken, since 1 action is 1 action is 1 action, and reaction is reaction is reaction, but they could be variable in the exact words and gestures used.

The "unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it" implies that written spells are specific to individual wizards. The bit about practicing and then transcribing "using your own notation" also implies that. It sounds like everyone has their own version of Fireball and so on.

The PHB also says that the spells in your spellbook "reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as the intellectual breakthroughs you have about the nature of the multiverse".

Right. So you might come up with a somewhat different version of fireball that you cast with 1 action, or you might come up with a somewhat different counterspell that you cast with 1 reaction, but the time taken to cast those spells is the same.

And the somatic section... just the word "might" removes the certainty you're claiming. And somatic gestures in and of themselves indicate that different people can perform them at different speeds... just as with any other physical activity.

No the word might doesn't do any such thing. The word might just means that there could be a variety of specific somatic components a spell might use, not that the spell could switch it up each time it is cast.

So your fireball might need you to raise your left hand 3 inches up and then 3 inches to the left forcefully, but mine might need me to do the Dr. Strange gesture.

I don't see anything here that contradicts the idea that different casters may cast spells differently, or that there can't be more than one version of spells.

No. I agree with you there. My disagreement was with, "Nor does the book say that casting a counterspell works the exact same way every time a caster uses it."

The words and gestures won't change with each casting or any casting. The notations the wizard made to the base spell will remain constant

 

[Bill Zebub]

The rule I would use is simply, "you cannot react to a reaction". Full stop.

Or counterspell could specify that it can only be used on spells that have a casting time of a bonus action, regular action, or longer.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or counterspell could specify that it can only be used on spells that have a casting time of a bonus action, regular action, or longer.

Sure, but I'm actually fine with the general rule.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You seem to be denying that the "truth" about how magic works is made up. But I don't know where you think that truth is found, and how it constrains what I or other RPGers can coherently imagine.

This hits the nail on the head.

There are examples of gameplay allowed by 5e that conflict with or contradict the way some people imagine the game world working. And that’s a bummer for them, but the reality (which @iserith noted upstream with the HP comparison) is that they are choosing the constraints that cause that conflict.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Not variable with a specific caster. They could be variable between different casters. Not in the amount of time taken, since 1 action is 1 action is 1 action, and reaction is reaction is reaction, but they could be variable in the exact words and gestures used.

Right. So you might come up with a somewhat different version of fireball that you cast with 1 action, or you might come up with a somewhat different counterspell that you cast with 1 reaction, but the time taken to cast those spells is the same.

No the word might doesn't do any such thing. The word might just means that there could be a variety of specific somatic components a spell might use, not that the spell could switch it up each time it is cast.

So your fireball might need you to raise your left hand 3 inches up and then 3 inches to the left forcefully, but mine might need me to do the Dr. Strange gesture.

No. I agree with you there. My disagreement was with, "Nor does the book say that casting a counterspell works the exact same way every time a caster uses it."

The words and gestures won't change with each casting or any casting. The notations the wizard made to the base spell will remain constant

1 action is not a fixed amount of time in the narrative.

In your campaign how long is "1 action"?

 

[Maxperson]

1 action is not a fixed amount of time in the narrative.

In your campaign how long is "1 action"?

The same length as any other action. If it were longer, it would say so. If it were shorter, it would be a bonus action or reaction. During a round you can move, take one action, one bonus action, etc.