D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[hawkeyefan]

Reread what I wrote: I was specifically referring to times when the initiative order does not apply. Multiple reactions within the same initiative pip are one such case.

But that’s how reactions work. They don’t take place outside of the initiative order, they take place within it. I take a reaction on someone else’s turn.

Reactions interrupt the triggering action.

I want the characters' actions in the fiction to reflect the declaration sequence at the table, in situations where initiative order doesn't apply.

Right and that’s the problem. Or at least, that’s what’s causing the conflict. You want the game to work differently than it does. Which is fine! But there’s no need for it to go beyond your preference. No need to claim others are doing things wrong, or twisting the fiction and so on.

 

[AnotherGuy]

There was a species in deepspace9 that experienced time nonlinearly & even a pretty good episode about sisko explaining the concept of linear time to them. If not linearly... how do you experience time?

After reading your link it made me want to watch it for a 3rd time.

 

[AnotherGuy]

OK, then, how do you make it so the last person to act (i.e. in the metagame, the last player to declare their reaction) doesn't always win?

Shield is an automatic fixed bonus to AC for the round. Additional attacks against the Shielded target may indeed bypass the now improved AC.
With Counterspell, it is automatic if the spell being countered is of a certain level, otherwise a roll is required.
In both instances resources are utilised, first in the use of their Reaction and second in expenditure of using a spell slot.
In a game which appears to value resource attrition (sometimes over fun)*, it is a reasonable cost for the so-called "win"

When initative rules don't apply (as is the case with chain reactions) the choice is that one can rule things happen in FIFO or LIFO order. LIFO gives too much advantage to the last player to speak up, and FIFO also makes more logical sense in the fiction.

I would say the fiction is only set in stone once the effects of the action have been resolved.
In our game, Reactions occur during that phase and not at the end allowing for the narrated fiction to be adjusted.


* Encounters/Day = results in unnecessary grind.

 

[Lanefan]

5e has no concept of an "initiative pip". To the best of my knowledge, that has not been part of any D&D initiative system except the one set out (somewhat obscurely) in Gygax's DMG.

You still know what I mean, though: if someone with initiative 15 starts an action that triggers a series of reactions, all those reactions take place within initiative 15 and they, plus the triggering action, all have to be sorted before the game can move on to initiative 14.

There's no term for an initiative count or initiative step so 'pip' will have to do until there is.

 

[Lanefan]

But that’s how reactions work. They don’t take place outside of the initiative order, they take place within it. I take a reaction on someone else’s turn.

Sigh.

When a series of reactions is triggered by one action, that series of reactions doesn't use initiative order to resolve. They're happening outside of initiative, as my immediate-previous post points out.

Right and that’s the problem. Or at least, that’s what’s causing the conflict. You want the game to work differently than it does. Which is fine! But there’s no need for it to go beyond your preference. No need to claim others are doing things wrong, or twisting the fiction and so on.

Oh, I'll gladly claim the game does this wrong and won't apologize for doing so, because the game does do this wrong.

 

[pemerton]

You still know what I mean, though: if someone with initiative 15 starts an action that triggers a series of reactions, all those reactions take place within initiative 15 and they, plus the triggering action, all have to be sorted before the game can move on to initiative 14.

There's no term for an initiative count or initiative step so 'pip' will have to do until there is.

I don't know what you mean by "all those reactions take place within initiative 15".

All those reactions are resolved at that point. This is a thing that happens in the real world. In the fiction, they are occurring more-or-less simultaneously with everything else that is happening in the round. This is a marked difference from Gygax's AD&D, which envisages that there is some sort of correlation between initiative numbers as a thing at the table, and moments in the fictional time when events occur.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't know what you mean by "all those reactions take place within initiative 15".

Exactly what I say. If on initiative 15 I start a spell and you (and some others) all react to it, the person with initiative 14 doesn't get to use that initiative until all the stuff triggered on 15, plus the triggering action, gets sorted. Hence, it's logical to say all those reactions are taking place within initiative 15.

All those reactions are resolved at that point. This is a thing that happens in the real world. In the fiction, they are occurring more-or-less simultaneously with everything else that is happening in the round. This is a marked difference from Gygax's AD&D, which envisages that there is some sort of correlation between initiative numbers as a thing at the table, and moments in the fictional time when events occur.

Initiative count is a timekeeper. If I swing on init 18 and you swing on init 12 there's no doubt in anyone's mind, either at the table or in the fiction, that I swung first. Now in 5e the amount of actual in-game time between the two swings is indeed fairly trivial - each pip represents about 0.3 of a second if not less - but it's still enough to suggest your swing came slightly less than two seconds after mine.

And if initiative count isn't a timekeeper then what's the point of it?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Sigh.

When a series of reactions is triggered by one action, that series of reactions doesn't use initiative order to resolve. They're happening outside of initiative, as my immediate-previous post points out.

So in the history of various editions and I even think within 5e you can ready an action or hold your action until a specific trigger occurs. Your "initiative pip" then moves to when the triggering action occurs. That is using one's initiative order.

If the above is possible why would other reactions be considered "outside of initiative"?

How do you view Attacks of Opportunity since they are effectively reactions?

 

[Lanefan]

So in the history of various editions and I even think within 5e you can ready an action or hold your action until a specific trigger occurs. Your "initiative pip" then moves to when the triggering action occurs. That is using one's initiative order.

If the above is possible why would other reactions be considered "outside of initiative"?

How do you view Attacks of Opportunity since they are effectively reactions?

They happen within the same 'pip' as whatever triggered them.

 

[pemerton]

Initiative count is a timekeeper. If I swing on init 18 and you swing on init 12 there's no doubt in anyone's mind, either at the table or in the fiction, that I swung first.

<snip>

And if initiative count isn't a timekeeper then what's the point of it?

I don't think the first quoted paragraph is true in 3E, 4e or 5e. If you were to read Gygax's description in his DMG of the combat round, and ignore the half-baked initiative stuff, it wouldn't apply there either. The melee combat round is full of "swings" and back-and-forth and so on.

The initiative count dictates the order in which actions are declared, and so those who go first have a chance to dictate the action (within the constraints set by the rules). What that means in the fiction is pretty wide-open, though.

Now in 5e the amount of actual in-game time between the two swings is indeed fairly trivial - each pip represents about 0.3 of a second if not less - but it's still enough to suggest your swing came slightly less than two seconds after mine.

Nothing in the 3E, 4e or 5e rules says anything about pips of initiative representing any amount of time. There are not 20 segments, of 0.3 seconds each, in the 6 second round. This is an importation from Gygax's initiative rules that has no basis in the rules text of those systems, nor the game play that they support.

EDIT: Here's sufficient proof of the point that doesn't even need to point to the broader issue of rules text - suppose three characters, A with initiative 20, B with initiative 2, and C with initiative 1. Each of A, B and C can resolve 30' of movement on their turn before the next character's movement is resolved. So are you really saying that A - the most quickly-reacting of these characters who gets to have the most influence over the shape of events (by having their actions declared and resolved first) takes 5.4 seconds to move their 30 feet (just over 5' per second), while the low-DEX B moves 30 feet in 0.3 seconds (ie a speed of 100' per second)?

It makes no sense. Which reinforces the point that initiative is a way of sequencing the declaration and resolution of actions. It's not a measure of anything.