D&D 5E The Healing Spirit Nerf=Complete Overkill

[dave2008]

That isn't quite the case. 2-3 encounters a day, even with short rests in between, will still massively favour primary casters over most other characters.

Maybe in theory, but not in practice IME. It is not like I say: hey, we are only having 3 encounters today so use up all your spells in those three encounters. They usually have to ready for the next encounter.

 

[Charlaquin]

Maybe in theory, but not in practice IME. It is not like I say: hey, we are only having 3 encounters today so use up all your spells in those three encounters. They usually have to ready for the next encounter.

It also depends on how many turns each of those encounters go.

 

[Bacon Bits]

That's on those groups then. They're the ones that have somehow conflated 'adventuring day' with 'game session.' That definition isn't in the rules anywhere.

No, that's the tail wagging the dog. If the game doesn't fit into the lives of the people who play it, the game fails. I reject the notion that the game is birthed whole and fully grown from a gash in Jeremy Crawford's head, and players must mold their play preferences into the game. I say the game must be designed from it's outset as supporting the logistics of getting a group together to play, and if the game doesn't do that particularly well then it's a particularly poor example of a TTRPG.

In my decades of playing D&D, I have never played in a game where long rests are limited to sessions or vice versa.
Sometimes it is convenient to end a session at a long rest, if the timing matches, particularly if the group has levelled up. However never been determined by that.

It's not remotely difficult. All you need to do is plan an appropriate number of encounters and it runs itself. The players will naturally start looking for places to long rest near the end of the evening once they're old enough to know how long the session will actually last.

I think the game communicates pretty clearly that designers expect the PCs to rest when they choose to. They've been given a broad array of tools to make it safe to rest in essentially any circumstance. It requires some contrivance to deny them the ability to long rest, not that there hasn't been a constant stream of DMs asking to do just that since day 1.

 

[Azuresun]

It’s evident from analysis of the math. Also from experience playing the game.

So no actual source. Also, my experience playing the game says differently, so I guess our opinions cancel each other out.

Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

So, 6 to 8 medium or hard encounters is what the game expects players to be able to handle in one day, and that is the baseline the math is built around. Again, this is not a mandate, you can deviate from this and it’ll be fine. It’s just the assumption around which things are balanced. The fulcrum. And while this isn’t explicitly stated in the DMG, it is evident from an analysis of the math underlying various systems, and from anecdotal experience.

You're reading a LOT into that. It says "can handle", right before listing other ways an adventuring day can go. 6-8 encounters is listed as one possibility of three. That's it. Everything else--talk of "fulcrums", "maths baseline" is pure inference and supposition based on a very casually written sentence.

 

[Charlaquin]

So no actual source.

Well, the source is the math in the books.

Also, my experience playing the game says differently, so I guess our opinions cancel each other out.

Your experience is that having 6-8 medium or hard encounters in a day unbalances the game? Because otherwise, your experience does not contradict mine, and if you think it does, it’s possible you’ve misunderstood my position.

You're reading a LOT into that. It says "can handle", right before listing other ways an adventuring day can go. 6-8 encounters is listed as one possibility of three. That's it. Everything else--talk of "fulcrums", "maths baseline" is pure inference and supposition based on a very casually written sentence.

I’m actually reading very little into that sentence. What I’m reading into is the game’s systems and the math underlying them. Someone asked where in the book it said “6 to 8 encounters” so I pointed them to the quote, but the quote itself is actually the least compelling evidence to suggest that 6-8 medium encounters per day is the assumption the developers built the system math around. Far more compelling is the system math, which is built around 6-8 medium encounters per day.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Maybe in theory, but not in practice IME. It is not like I say: hey, we are only having 3 encounters today so use up all your spells in those three encounters. They usually have to ready for the next encounter.

No, but we are talking averages here. Having a couple of 2-encounter days to spotlight the wizard is fine, as is a couple of 12-encounter slogs where the rogue and fighter can shine. If the party get used to only 3 encounters a day, with occasional stretches to 5, and more than that being an outlier, they will plan around it. At tier 1 this really isn't an issue. When you get into tiers 2 and 3 balance concerns can start to make players feel like they aren't contributing.

It's not remotely difficult. All you need to do is plan an appropriate number of encounters and it runs itself. The players will naturally start looking for places to long rest near the end of the evening once they're old enough to know how long the session will actually last.

I'm sure it isn't difficult, and that many of your players are old enough to know how the session will last. I'm simply pointing out that my experience contradicts your claim that most groups end the session on a long rest.

I think the game communicates pretty clearly that designers expect the PCs to rest when they choose to. They've been given a broad array of tools to make it safe to rest in essentially any circumstance. It requires some contrivance to deny them the ability to long rest, not that there hasn't been a constant stream of DMs asking to do just that since day 1.

I do not get that impression from the game. To me, the "5 minute work day" or whatever the saying is, causes issues that have knock-on effects to player enjoyment. I do not believe that the game is designed with it in mind.

 

[cbwjm]

It’s in chapter 3 of the DMG, under the header, “The Adventuring Day.”

Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

In the same way you figure out the difficulty of an encounter, you can use the XP values of monsters and other opponents in an adventure as a guideline for how far the party is likely toprogress.

For each character in the party, use the Adventuring Day XP table to estimate how much XP that character is expected to earn in a day. Add together the values of all party members to get a total for the party’s adventuring day. This provides a rough estimate of the adjusted XP value for encounters the party can handle before the characters will need to take a long rest.

So, 6 to 8 medium or hard encounters is what the game expects players to be able to handle in one day, and that is the baseline the math is built around. Again, this is not a mandate, you can deviate from this and it’ll be fine. It’s just the assumption around which things are balanced. The fulcrum. And while this isn’t explicitly stated in the DMG, it is evident from an analysis of the math underlying various systems, and from anecdotal experience.

Thanks, it looks like I managed to skim over that section and went straight to the section on short rests below adventuring day XP. Glad to know it wasn't a case of me just picking it up off comments from others and assuming it was in the rules as a recommendation instead of being something that I read in the DMG. I mean, I'm still going to ignore it since the pacing is and decision to rest is often decided by the players rather than trying to stick to an encounter guideline.

 

[Charlaquin]

Thanks, it looks like I managed to skim over that section and went straight to the section on short rests below adventuring day XP. Glad to know it wasn't a case of me just picking it up off comments from others and assuming it was in the rules as a recommendation instead of being something that I read in the DMG. I mean, I'm still going to ignore it since the pacing is and decision to rest is often decided by the players rather than trying to stick to an encounter guideline.

Which is quite reasonable. Even as a strong supporter of the 6-encounter day, I feel like a lot of people put far too much importance on it. It’s an underlying assumption of the system’s design, not a requirement that must be met to keep the game fair.

 

[dave2008]

No, but we are talking averages here. Having a couple of 2-encounter days to spotlight the wizard is fine, as is a couple of 12-encounter slogs where the rogue and fighter can shine. If the party get used to only 3 encounters a day, with occasional stretches to 5, and more than that being an outlier, they will plan around it. At tier 1 this really isn't an issue. When you get into tiers 2 and 3 balance concerns can start to make players feel like they aren't contributing.

My players cannot plan for anything other than that they are never safe (as long as we are not in downtime mode). That is my DM style, and they know it. I do agree that if you get in rut as a DM, your players will follow. I try not to do that. To be honest, that is the type of advice I would live to see in a DMG. How to actually run and adventure and campaign. Not that I need it at this point, but I think a lot of new DMs could.

 

[cbwjm]

Which is quite reasonable. Even as a strong supporter of the 6-encounter day, I feel like a lot of people put far too much importance on it. It’s an underlying assumption of the system’s design, not a requirement that must be met to keep the game fair.

Yeah, I've seen in other threads where people take a really hard line on it to the point where if people aren't running 6-8 then they are somehow playing the game wrong. I'll try to challenge the players, sure, and I'll often have set up a number of encounters of varying difficulty, but I don't try to force at least 6 encounters. I think some DMs do.