The Heart of the Matter

[CleverNickName]

This just piqued an idea in my head. What if there was a way of determining the result of a combat, taking into account character and enemy capabilities, without resorting to turn by turn, blow by blow approach.

...

So instead of commiting the the time intensive turn-by-turn combat mechanics for EVERY last fight, a way that we can skip to the end result an not get bogged down. Which incorporates what characters and enemies are capable of and lets player know the effect their character had relative to their characters capabilities.

Something like:

GM, build an encounter by picking from the following perils. For instance, if you have a gang of pirates, one peril could be 'hacked to shreds,' while another might be 'tossed overboard and nearly drowned.' Sometimes an encounter would have multiple instances of the same peril. PCs take turns picking from the perils, until every peril is being confronted. Then the PCs make a saving throw to mitigate the effect. On a success, he only suffers a weaker version of the peril. On a failure, he gets the full bad result.

PC narration can grant them bonuses to their save.

These aren't bad ideas, and they sound like they would be a lot of fun to play...especially for story-focused games. I don't think it would work for me, though. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like round-by-round, turn-based combat sequences. I just don't like the game bogging down from information overload.

Players in 3.5E have to divide their attention between their character sheets, the battlemat, everyone else at the table, and the story I am trying to tell. That's a lot to keep track of.

 

[Li Shenron]

This just piqued an idea in my head. What if there was a way of determining the result of a combat, taking into account character and enemy capabilities, without resorting to turn by turn, blow by blow approach.

So, for instance "You smash into the room and engage the goblins in combat....By the time the bloody scrap is over'
* <Fighter with large axe but little armor> managed a huge amount of damage and fallen enemies, but took great wounds in the process
* <Other Fighter>Didnt take alot of damage, but did cop a poisoned arrow to the chest and is going to need to do something about it quickly
* <Rogue who snuck around the edges taking opportunity attacks>took little damage and managed to kill the goblin hexer before he really had any effect
* <Mage> spells didnt go too well this time and had little overall effect on the outcome

So instead of commiting the the time intensive turn-by-turn combat mechanics for EVERY last fight, a way that we can skip to the end result an not get bogged down. Which incorporates what characters and enemies are capable of and lets player know the effect their character had relative to their characters capabilities.

I might be dreaming, but its an interesting thought.

Cool idea. Could this be implemented in a way reminiscing of AD&D long (1min?) turns?

Maybe something like the following trace:

1- the fight starts, surprise is resolved, if necessary a detailed surprise round can be run

2- the DM declares that this fight will be "simplified" because it's not of major importance, turns will be used instead of rounds

3- in each turn:
3a- initiative is rolled
3b- all players declares in advance what their PCs intend to do during the turn (some "IF" clauses may be allowed, but the DM can limit them if they're too many or too detailed); there are limits e.g. on how many spells can be cast, depending on how many rounds equal one turn
3c- actions are resolved by the DM, the resolution is not detailed and no dice are rolled unless some key event may happen or to represent the magnitute of effect (e.g. fighter rolls 2d6 to check how many goblins he killed, wizard rolls to see if the "big" spell cast at the goblin chief succeeded, rogue rolls a Dex check to avoid the poison arrow)
3d- end of round, both sides make major decisions such as withdraw, surrender, regroup, or continue

Maybe if the designers could pick a good turn/rounds rate, it may not be too hard to make the outcome of a simplified combat approximate the outcome of a detailed combat of equivalent length.

And we would have both AD&D-styled and 3e/4e-styled combats in the same adventure

 

[Hassassin]

Cool idea. Could this be implemented in a way reminiscing of AD&D long (1min?) turns?

Maybe something like the following trace:

1- the fight starts, surprise is resolved, if necessary a detailed surprise round can be run

2- the DM declares that this fight will be "simplified" because it's not of major importance, turns will be used instead of rounds

[...]

And we would have both AD&D-styled and 3e/4e-styled combats in the same adventure

I wonder if it would be possible to use both in the same combat. The DM would start all fights with a 1 minute round, no battle mat. After the first round it would be clear whether

1. the PC's have overwhelming advantage - another round or two to decide results,
   
2. the sides are evenly matched - zoom in to 6 second rounds and (optional) battle grid, or
   
3. the opposing force has advantage - the PCs may attempt to retreat or zoom in to look for an advantage.

This would keep the initial tension for even easy fights, but resolve them quickly once it's clear what will happen. The time spent on a fight would be proportional to the importance of PC actions. Deaths would only become possible after the "zoom in".

 

[Hassassin]

Agreed. I had forgotten how quickly an encounter can be resolved in BECM. From rolling initiative to dishing out XP, a 4-on-4 encounter with a band of pirates took all of 7 minutes (I watched the clock.) A similar encounter would have taken half an hour under 3.5E...four times as long.

Simplified rules = faster combat = more combat = more excitement.

In 3e it depends a lot on level. This is a bug, IMO.

I've DM'd encounters of 1st-3rd level parties against 4-8 bandits in 5-15 minutes, depending on whether a grid is used. At 10th+ level that's no longer possible - or at least it's very difficult.

 

[rogueattorney]

Our 3rd to 6th level B/X D&D party fought a dragon last night. We used a spell we found on an ancient scroll to banish it to Hell (or outer space... We're not exactly sure... long story). The combat lasted about 2 minutes.

Our longest combat may have lasted about 15 minutes. Maybe. That's when our party of about 12 ran into a high-level wizard and his two basalt golems. My then 5th level dwarf (6th, now, since getting the dragon horde back to the surface) took a fireball and a punch from a golem and survived. About half of the rest of the party died in the fire ball. (Dwarves have rockin' saving throws!!!)

I used my Ring of Climbing to scale a wall out of the reach of the golems, while Vithujin the Elf used his magic sword to call the North Wind and take out the wizard. (Another long story -- we're not sure if the North Wind lives in the sword or is summoned by the sword, or what.)

Good times!

 

[CleverNickName]

I put a little bit more thought into my original post, and this is what I came up with.

First, we will start with the Rules Cyclopedia. Go on, get your copy from the shelf...I'll wait. Oh, and we will need you to pull up the 3.5E SRD in another browser window, too.

Got it? Cool. Flip through it with me, now.

1. On page 6, delete the bit about "Prime Requisites" and add a step called "Choose a Race." Then copy the flavor text and special abilities for the Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling (pages 23-27) here. Races are done.

What? I thought you were following along. Come on, go get your books and let's do this thing.

2. Pages 13-31: Replace the character advancement tables for each class with the ones from the d20 System. Resist the urge to "update" or "revise" the abilities shown in the Rules Cyclopedia...they are fine. We just want the BAT and the save throws. Everything else in the RC entry gets added to the table, unchanged.

3. (Optional) Page 31: add the Multiclassing rules from d20...just the parts about adding the BAT and Saves together. We don't need anything else.

4. Pages 67, 68, and 137: use the d20 System's armor modifiers. Resist the urge to "fix" encumbrance and cost.

5. Pages 105-108: replace the THAC0 tables and RC text with the d20 System's rules for combat ONLY. Resist the temptation to add anything else like space/reach, grappling, tripping, and flanking. We don't need it.

6. Page 109: delete the save throw table, and replace it with the save throw write-up from the d20 System. As always, resist the urge to add anything else. All we are looking for here is a blurb that says "this is how to make a save throw."

7. Page 130: add a paragraph or two about choosing a race.

8. Pages 156 - 213: Give each monster a BAT score and Save Throws from the character tables, according to its current "Save As:" entry or its Hit Dice, whichever is higher. If the monster has 4 HD but saves at F:8, for example, give it the base save throws and attack bonus of an 8th level fighter. If something looks fishy, just use your best judgment. Then walk away. Resist the urge to "help" by adding ability scores, subtypes, size modifiers, and the like.

Boom. Done.

Okay, I admit that I didn't go through the Rules Cyclopedia page-by-page; I just used the table of contents to find the major parts that would need to be adapted. There would be a considerable amount of effort left over, to carry those 8 changes through the entire book. But as long as we can resist the urge to add stuff, the end result would be about as close to ideal as I could ever hope for.

 

[dagger]

I don't envy WoTC right now...not at all.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Okay, I admit that I didn't go through the Rules Cyclopedia page-by-page; I just used the table of contents to find the major parts that would need to be adapted. There would be a considerable amount of effort left over, to carry those 8 changes through the entire book. But as long as we can resist the urge to add stuff, the end result would be about as close to ideal as I could ever hope for.

Write up your hack, ad an OGL, open a blog and join the OSR!

 

[erleni]

I have a lot of fond memories of AD&D but mainly use the "fluff" books as a reference now (love Volo's guides) as 4th edition is more my cup of tea (and I don't mind longer combat as long as they're fun).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Something like:

GM, build an encounter by picking from the following perils. For instance, if you have a gang of pirates, one peril could be 'hacked to shreds,' while another might be 'tossed overboard and nearly drowned.' Sometimes an encounter would have multiple instances of the same peril. PCs take turns picking from the perils, until every peril is being confronted. Then the PCs make a saving throw to mitigate the effect. On a success, he only suffers a weaker version of the peril. On a failure, he gets the full bad result.

PC narration can grant them bonuses to their save.

"We were in the nick of time. You were in great peril."
"I don't think I was."
"Yes, you were. You were in terrible peril."
"Look, let me go back in there and face the peril!"
"No, it's too perilous."
"Look, it's my duty as a knight to sample as much peril as I can."
"No, we've got to find the Holy Grail. Come on."
"Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?"
"No... it's unhealthy."
"Bet you're gay."

"No, I'm not."