D&D General The History of Alignment: Why D&D Has the Nine-Point Alignment System 4 UR Memes

[Gradine]

Eh .... I've been down that rabbit hole. Some people are like, "Oh, it's Finnish." Which, maybe, Mordenkainen and all. Others are all, "Sumerian, bruh. Guys in my high school were all into the Mashu. No big deal." And yet others note Milton, and refer to a poem that a colleague of Milton wrote.

But none are definitive. And I have difficulty believing Gygax tracked down an obscure poem by a colleague of Milton that doesn't even technically use the term "Twin Paradises."

Eh, I always prefer Twin Peaks, honestly

 

[Demetrios1453]

Correction: One fake made-up British nonsense likely coined by James Fennimore Cooper (yes, really).


Edit:

I just got that reference too

James Fennimore Cooper was American, not British. He was born in New Jersey.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Eh, I always prefer Twin Peaks, honestly

A Lynchian cosmology would be fun.

 

[Gradine]

James Fennimore Cooper was American, not British. He was born in New Jersey.

This is true, and he did likely coin (or at least popularize) the exact terminology, but the concept of a "happy hunting ground" in terms of "Native American heaven" (which is all kinds of messed up for reasons far beyond the complete lack of existence of a universal "Native American" culture/religion) became part of contemporary (mis)"understanding" of indigenous Americans long before there was an "American" nation to speak of; the colonists were still distinctly "British" at that time

 

[Zeromaru X]

Wiki: "1977-: Advanced D&D​

Stephen R Marsh claimed that when Gary Gygax was developing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, he convinced Gygax to add a Good and Evil axis to D&D's character alignment system. (Originally, characters could only be Lawful, Chaotic or Neutral. By adding a second axis, the number of possible alignments based on combinations of Law, Chaos, Good, Evil and Neutral grew from three to nine.)"

1. producer Vincent Florio (2011-09-05). "Interview with Steve Marsh". Save or Die. 14:00 minutes in.

So, he is the one we should thank for the interminable alignment debates of the last 45+ years?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

the colonists were still distinctly "British" at that time

This is something that is open to debate. The colonists where distinctly puritan, whereas English culture, like French, had moved in a libertine direction, and wouldn't swing back towards puritanism until the 19th century. So, whilst they would have thought of themselves as British, the colonists where already diverging culturally.

 

[Gradine]

This is something that is open to debate. The colonists where distinctly puritan, whereas English culture, like French, had moved in a libertine direction, and wouldn't swing back towards puritanism until the 19th century. So, whilst they would have thought of themselves as British, the colonists where already diverging culturally.

Some colonists we're distinctly puritan; others still were Catholic or other mainline (or otherwise; see Quakers and Mennonites) Protestant sects. The only shared defining characteristic of the colonists pre-Revolution was that they were British subjects.

But this is really neither here nor there

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Some colonists we're distinctly puritan; others still were Catholic or other mainline (or otherwise; see Quakers and Mennonites) Protestant sects. The only shared defining characteristic of the colonists pre-Revolution was that they were British subjects.

But this is really neither here nor there

Those groups where all puritanical compared to trends in Europe in the 18th century.

Spellings had also started to diverge, particularly with regard to "ou".

 

[CreamCloud0]

i'd wish that we could get an implementation of alignment where your character's is meaningful to the game, however the main issue is that if you want to do alignment properly character's actions should influence their alignment and ultimately people will disagree over interpretations or judgements of character's actions. you can't just say Good is benevolence, Evil is callous, Lawful wants structure and Chaotic wants liberty, because even if your good character decides needs of the many is in play there's always someone else who will decry them as being evil for being willing to sacrifice someone.

 

[payn]

i'd wish that we could get an implementation of alignment where your character's is meaningful to the game, however the main issue is that if you want to do alignment properly character's actions should influence their alignment and ultimately people will disagree over interpretations or judgements of character's actions. you can't just say Good is benevolence, Evil is callous, Lawful wants structure and Chaotic wants liberty, because even if your good character decides needs of the many is in play there's always someone else who will decry them as being evil for being willing to sacrifice someone.

Thats the nut to crack. A lot of folks are uncomfortable with an evil character like an assassin. Or the idea that an evil character has to kick every puppy and steal every babies' candy or turn in their evil card. Additionally, you have folks that think every action works like a meta math problem. Every time you slaughter babies, you can just donate to an orphanage to balance out kind of thing.

Of course, there are also make the paladin fall type GMs that place trolley dilemmas into every adventure. When I run 3E/PF1 I have players consider what alignment they want to select and then im fairly hands off. An obvious pattern needs to arise before I as GM step in. Like a good character with a taste for torture and killing. That wont hold up. However, I dont force changes for trying moments that a player has to deal with. Doing something very much out of alignment could be a great RP moment. Is this the turning point of a new arch for the character? Or maybe its just one of their darkest days? Perhaps an epihany that changes their life? I put that in the player's hands and alignment can be a great guide for such occasions.

Otherwise, whatever you pick and stick with will follow you. Probably 60-75% of the time it isnt going to matter. Though, sooner or later planar war spills over and you are likely to find yourself effected by traps, spells, weaponry designed to target folks of certain alignment.