The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I never understood why stuff like that happens in translation. If we're taking another language's words and translating them to English, wouldn't it make sense to just write them how they sound, instead of whatever ungodly process went into making it spelled "P H O"?

It because Vietnamese uses the Latin alphabet natively, through a French form. So the vowels are pronounced like French, not English.

 

[niklinna]

It because Vietnamese uses the Latin alphabet natively, through a French form. So the vowels are pronounced like French, not English.

If that were the case, "pho" would rhyme with "lavabo" (the French word of course; English doesn't have that as a pure vowel free of diphthongs). French doesn't have the actual vowel in Vietnamese, either. But, the native orthograhpy is "Phở", in which 'ơ' is the base letter with an IPA value of /əː˧/ (that is, a long mid-central vowel with a mid tone), and the little curlicue on top is a tone marker to change it from the default (depending on dialect).

Geek out with me at the Wikipedia page on pho! And the Wikipedia page on the Vietnamese alphabet.

I knew that linguistics degree would come in handy one day....

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It because Vietnamese uses the Latin alphabet natively, through a French form. So the vowels are pronounced like French, not English.

Yeah, but we also translate a ton of words from other languages to English to make sense with our standard pronunciations. I know English (and linguistics in general) are stupid and nonsensical, but I always wondered why we sometimes change the spelling to fit our pronunciations and other times don't.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

 

[niklinna]

Yeah, but we also translate a ton of words from other languages to English to make sense with our standard pronunciations. I know English (and linguistics in general) are stupid and nonsensical, but I always wondered why we sometimes change the spelling to fit our pronunciations and other times don't.

Well there goes my moment of pride at having my linguistics degree be useful....

At least I'm not a Chomskyan.

And English? Standard pronunciations? Would that be in the United States, Engliand, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, India...?

I could hazard some guesses about why we sometimes change the spelling of purloined words to fit out pronunciations and other times don't, but

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Well there goes my moment of pride at having my linguistics degree be useful....

Sorry. Maybe I used the wrong term. I don't mean "linguistics" as in studying languages, that's quite useful. I meant more "the process in which languages evolve and borrow aspects from other languages" isn't internally consistent with how that language generally works.

And English? Standard pronunciations? Would that be in the United States, Engliand, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, India...?

Do any major English dialects pronounce their words so differently that "P H O" would sound like "fuh"?

 

[Parmandur]

If that were the case, "pho" would rhyme with "lavabo" (the French word of course; English doesn't have that as a pure vowel free of diphthongs). French doesn't have the actual vowel in Vietnamese, either. But, the native orthograhpy is "Phở", in which 'ơ' is the base letter with an IPA value of /əː˧/ (that is, a long mid-central vowel with a mid tone), and the little curlicue on top is a tone marker to change it from the default (depending on dialect).

Geek out with me at the Wikipedia page on pho! And the Wikipedia page on the Vietnamese alphabet.

I knew that linguistics degree would come in handy one day....

Touché, though the fact thst Vietnamese has it own version of the Latin alphabet which doesn't line up with English as a result.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, but we also translate a ton of words from other languages to English to make sense with our standard pronunciations. I know English (and linguistics in general) are stupid and nonsensical, but I always wondered why we sometimes change the spelling to fit our pronunciations and other times don't.

Usually the big difference is if a language has it's own version if the Latin alphabet, like Vietnamese, Gaelic, Welsh or Polish: their spellings are phonetic in their own version of the Latin alphabet, bit because it's the Latin alphabet rarely is the orthography corrected Tobe phonetic in English. Whereas other languages, like Japanese or Russian, are usually phonetic because they have to be transliterated from a different alphabet.

 

[niklinna]

Sorry. Maybe I used the wrong term. I don't mean "linguistics" as in studying languages, that's quite useful. I meant more "the process in which languages evolve and borrow aspects from other languages" isn't internally consistent with how that language generally works.

Well, that's different, then!

Do any major English dialects pronounce their words so differently that "P H O" would sound like "fuh"?

None of the ones I listed, to my knowledge.

 

[niklinna]

Usually the big difference is if a language has it's own version if the Latin alphabet, like Vietnamese, Gaelic, Welsh or Polish: their spellings are phonetic in their own version of the Latin alphabet, bit because it's the Latin alphabet rarely is the orthography corrected Tobe phonetic in English. Whereas other languages, like Japanese or Russian, are usually phonetic because they have to be transliterated from a different alphabet.

There's also the question of whether the word was borrowed with its native orthography, or through oral channels only, and given a spelling to fit. More likely the older a word is, of course.