Violence and (Geek) Entertainment

[SableWyvern]

Edit: Never mind, better off just moving on rather than responding.

 

[Umbran]

And what’s the point of the story?

Did someone teach you that a story should have one, singular, "THE point"? That person was incorrect.

It doesn’t really have anything to say about the real world.

Wow, are you wrong.

IT speaks to the loss of childhood innocence, and how that's a one-way gate you can never return through. The book also has themes regarding how monsters like Pennywise are not the most formative ones in people's lives - each member of the "Losers Club" has suffered at the hands of family and society before dealing with the supernatural horror. The novel critiques social apathy, as the town of Derry ignores not only the monster, but it's own racism, bullying, and misogynistic elements.

We could go on for pages and pages breaking down the themes and messages one can get from the book. But other authors have done that analysis better than I could do in a few minutes late on a Saturday night. You'd do well to look them up.

He just wants us to look at pain, suffering and trauma and be entertained by it. That seems pretty pornographic to me.

I repeat: Wow are you wrong.

 

[MGibster]

IT speaks to the loss of childhood innocence, and how that's a one-way gate you can never return through. The book also has themes regarding how monsters like Pennywise are not the most formative ones in people's lives - each member of the "Losers Club" has suffered at the hands of family and society before dealing with the supernatural horror.

One of the things I like most about King is his characters seem like real people. In The Shining, after just a few days at the Overlook Hotel, Jack considers resigning his position. There was the incident with Danny and the wasp's nest and both Jack and Wendy have a bad feeling about the place. But Jack considers his position: If he leaves he won't be able to support his family and will be on welfare. A friend recommended him for the caretaker position, a friend who has the influence to get him his teaching job back, and if he bails on this job at such short notice it would damage that friend's reputation. We, the reader, understands why Jack chooses not to leave despite his apprehension about staying.

I have to agree with you that It and King's other works, really any decent work of fiction, is about something. It's not just about cracking jokes, shooting people in the face, or showing off good special effects, it's about something that resonates with us. Even something as simplistic as Star Wars is about something.

 

[Kichwas]

This thread is inspired by Stephen King's recent comment regarding the violence of Marvel movies being almost "pornographic." In a nutshell, King's criticism is the movies show all sorts of destruction to a city but very little on how that impacts the people there.

I'm not here to say fictional violence is necessarily bad.
[...]
But I've had a similar thought to King that one of the problems with violence in the media is that we don't very often see the negative consequences.

I think more media, even media aimed at children, should better show the consequences of violence. Don't go thinking I'm a monster, I'm a reasonable person after all, at least I think I am, so it's not like I want to expose a six year old to an episode of GI Joe where Duke holds Scarlet as she attempts to hold in her intestines after Stormshadow guts her with a katana. While that's a reasonable consequences to having someone slash your belly with a razor sharp sword, I'm inclined to keep things age appropriate. And I do think injuries and even character deaths can be age appropriate for children.

Folks probably won't understand my perspective. Since I'm in the middle of working through it I'm not sure I fully understand it yet either.

This topic has been on my mind a LOT of late.

Especially after watching comparisons between the new Superman movie and the one where he was evil from a decade ago.

That's been a lot of cinema where lives are taken with no thought by people we're supposed to see as heroes.

Now... I grew up with what is likely a lot more violence than the average person. I'm also a veteran, and I've met a number of people outside of that who made a choice to take life when they didn't have to. It's not glamorous. It's not cool. Your mind has to be pretty screwed up to be OK with casual death and violence all around you.

I've recently referred to the average tRPG PC as a serial killer - and that's not by mistake or exaggeration. PCs rarely even have the excuse of being forced into it by war.

One of the things I really hate about the modern hobby is the obsession with describing the kill move. If you've dealt with real violence you'd know that's just not entertaining.

We abstract it to 'hit points' not just as an easy mechanic, but because the body horror of this stuff is also otherwise not 'normal' to dwell on.

I don't want to turn my tRPG session into a trauma ward where we examine the after effects of all the violence. But I also am not able to not think about it. It just sticks in my mind and when I'm asked to say "how does it happen" after some move - it's like being dragged through it all.

So I don't want that. But I'm also bothered by the idea that a gang of serial killers just run around taking trophies from their victims like it's normal and the world has no reaction to it or any of the other violence going on.

It's probably why I spent most of my time in the hobby running and playing super hero RPGs before the modern Marvel era - so the idea that heroes never kill was firmly ingrained in us.

Lately I've been on a kick of arming my PCs with things like a staff, or reflavoring my spells as knockout magic.

But I don't know where I'm going to eventually land on this one. I'm starting to wonder if I'm not going to end up X-carding myself right out of the hobby.

The New Superman movie is like a reminder that heroes don't have to be killers. So maybe I'll go back to the super hero genre in the end.

 

[overgeeked]

Lately I've been on a kick of arming my PCs with things like a staff, or reflavoring my spells as knockout magic.

But I don't know where I'm going to eventually land on this one. I'm starting to wonder if I'm not going to end up X-carding myself right out of the hobby.

The New Superman movie is like a reminder that heroes don't have to be killers. So maybe I'll go back to the super hero genre in the end.

Absolutely. It's always been my favorite genre and the movie resparked my interest. So tired of endless, mindless slaughter.

 

[Kichwas]

The problem with Man of Steal was its subtext (hopefully unintentional) was that the lives of ordinary people don't matter, and whoever is strongest and most ruthless should decide their fate.

And the great thing in the 2025 Superman is that lives are the primary thing Superman is concerned about, with much of his effort being dedicated to ensuring that nobody is caught in the crossfire or collateral of battles - not even dogs or squirrels. The only way his battles don't have wider consequences is through his own constant struggle and vigilance.

This analysis really hit home for me on that point, and the contrast with Superman in the new movie. It's also an insanely brutal takedown of both the older movie, it's director, and that director's "faith"...:

And on topic. It shows how two radically different ways of handling violence leaves a very different impact on a story.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Did someone teach you that a story should have one, singular, "THE point"? That person was incorrect.



Wow, are you wrong.

IT speaks to the loss of childhood innocence, and how that's a one-way gate you can never return through. The book also has themes regarding how monsters like Pennywise are not the most formative ones in people's lives - each member of the "Losers Club" has suffered at the hands of family and society before dealing with the supernatural horror. The novel critiques social apathy, as the town of Derry ignores not only the monster, but it's own racism, bullying, and misogynistic elements.

We could go on for pages and pages breaking down the themes and messages one can get from the book. But other authors have done that analysis better than I could do in a few minutes late on a Saturday night. You'd do well to look them up.



I repeat: Wow are you wrong.

Maybe. I wouldn’t claim to “get” King, and have never enjoyed his work. My personal impression is he wallows in misery and the awfulness of humanity without offering any hope.

 

[TiQuinn]

Folks probably won't understand my perspective. Since I'm in the middle of working through it I'm not sure I fully understand it yet either.

This topic has been on my mind a LOT of late.

Especially after watching comparisons between the new Superman movie and the one where he was evil from a decade ago.

That's been a lot of cinema where lives are taken with no thought by people we're supposed to see as heroes.

Now... I grew up with what is likely a lot more violence than the average person. I'm also a veteran, and I've met a number of people outside of that who made a choice to take life when they didn't have to. It's not glamorous. It's not cool. Your mind has to be pretty screwed up to be OK with casual death and violence all around you.

I've recently referred to the average tRPG PC as a serial killer - and that's not by mistake or exaggeration. PCs rarely even have the excuse of being forced into it by war.

One of the things I really hate about the modern hobby is the obsession with describing the kill move. If you've dealt with real violence you'd know that's just not entertaining.

We abstract it to 'hit points' not just as an easy mechanic, but because the body horror of this stuff is also otherwise not 'normal' to dwell on.

I don't want to turn my tRPG session into a trauma ward where we examine the after effects of all the violence. But I also am not able to not think about it. It just sticks in my mind and when I'm asked to say "how does it happen" after some move - it's like being dragged through it all.

So I don't want that. But I'm also bothered by the idea that a gang of serial killers just run around taking trophies from their victims like it's normal and the world has no reaction to it or any of the other violence going on.

It's probably why I spent most of my time in the hobby running and playing super hero RPGs before the modern Marvel era - so the idea that heroes never kill was firmly ingrained in us.

Lately I've been on a kick of arming my PCs with things like a staff, or reflavoring my spells as knockout magic.

But I don't know where I'm going to eventually land on this one. I'm starting to wonder if I'm not going to end up X-carding myself right out of the hobby.

The New Superman movie is like a reminder that heroes don't have to be killers. So maybe I'll go back to the super hero genre in the end.

Yeah, I moved away from brutal descriptions to simpler ones that just say the orc falls to the ground dead. The buckets of blood approach has its limits both in terms of goriness but also just plain lack of effectiveness due to overuse. Letting a villain give one last line before expiring can be more memorable than describing how badly he was wounded.

 

[Umbran]

Maybe. I wouldn’t claim to “get” King, and have never enjoyed his work. My personal impression is he wallows in misery and the awfulness of humanity without offering any hope.

With horror (or any work that depicts sufficient harm or brutality), it is possible to be so struck by the awfulness that you can't get to the underlying message.

But that doesn't mean hope doesn't exist. In IT, the kids, and later the adults, prevail over the horror, through the power of mutual support and friendship. In The Stand (which isn't even horror) good triumphs over evil through personal sacrifice. In The Shining, some only seem to remember Jack Torrence by way of Jack Nicholson's face coming through a splintered door, and we forget that he managed to force his way through his alcoholism and supernatural influence, to protect the family he loved through an act of self-sacrifice.

So, no, he isn't just wallowing in awfulness. Yes, he uses that awfulness, but it isn't all that's going on.

 

[TiQuinn]

In The Shining, some only seem to remember Jack Torrence by way of Jack Nicholson's face coming through a splintered door, and we forget that he managed to force his way through his alcoholism and supernatural influence, to protect the family he loved through an act of self-sacrifice.

Which is an aspect that if one only watched the movie and never read the book, they would probably never know. King’s writing is very hopeful, I find.