Violence and (Geek) Entertainment

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

It was a brief anecdote related to the topic, not a detailed analysis of the situation. It appears I may have made it seem more extreme situation when it was.

While my basic reaction to his response was, "you reap what you sow", I did take his comments on board as a reminder not to go too far.

If it had actually been an ongoing issue, both of us are quite capable of speaking up and hashing it out - - however, it was not an ongoing issue.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. "You reap what you sow" is actually a valuable life lesson. In this scenario, your brother's response was well justified though. Your counter-response was spot on too.

 

[Scribe]

There's an argument there, but I think that'd be more about the focus on action-adventure fiction as a basis in general, not why violence is so prevelant. Some other forms of fiction are more difficult for group play, which probably doesn't help, but its hard to say what it would be like if the initial major game in the medium had been something else.

Sure, but that is the foundation. You can look at a whole bunch of other things that also contribute, but the root of it is the root of it. Wargame, Western, Manifest Destiny, there's quite a lot of that in D&D, and that is the root. I'm not going to argue that it isnt, and yes if we have that as our basis, then the glorification, abstraction, and downplaying of violence, when interrogated, doesn't look quite so good.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sure, but that is the foundation. You can look at a whole bunch of other things that also contribute, but the root of it is the root of it. Wargame, Western, Manifest Destiny, there's quite a lot of that in D&D, and that is the root. I'm not going to argue that it isnt, and yes if we have that as our basis, then the glorification, abstraction, and downplaying of violence, when interrogated, doesn't look quite so good.

I think the problem is some other games that still feature violence don't derive much of their approach from Westerns or Manifest Destiny. The derive it from particular types of fiction. I suppose you could argue those types of fiction might derive from those, but at least some of them actually predate those particular concepts.

Truth is, heroic fiction with a heavy violent tendency goes back a very long time, and that's what most RPGs are based on to one degree or another. That's why I say it might be more useful to ask exactly why so much of the hobby is based on heroic fiction. Its always possible that that can be layed at D&D feet of course, at least to some degree.

 

[Scribe]

I think the problem is some other games that still feature violence don't derive much of their approach from Westerns or Manifest Destiny. The derive it from particular types of fiction. I suppose you could argue those types of fiction might derive from those, but at least some of them actually predate those particular concepts.

Truth is, heroic fiction with a heavy violent tendency goes back a very long time, and that's what most RPGs are based on to one degree or another. That's why I say it might be more useful to ask exactly why so much of the hobby is based on heroic fiction. Its always possible that that can be layed at D&D feet of course, at least to some degree.

I'm not suggesting that violence has its roots in only those things. Violence has existed as long as a being has desired something that another being has.

Why do we have these strong ties to violence in heroic fiction? Because our myths and stories grew from the same soil as our history and its littered with violence.

The 'hero' is just the guy who got to write the tale.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Descriptions of violence for me varies on what I'm running. For D&D, which I don't take at all seriously, I go for over-the-top descriptions of violence and gore that nobody could possibly take seriously. During my last session, a creature was killed by a Cloud of Daggers spell. I described it as what happens when you put something in a food processor, except there are no barriers to keep everything contained, so the paladin is covered the blood and little chunks of viscera of the mind flayer.

In my last Vampire chronicle, I shamelessly ripped off Jason Carl in LA Vampire by Night by starting each session with a little vignette of what various people in San Francisco had been up to during the day while the PCs slept. Like little Bobby Joe started kindergarten, Susan Swanson lost her husband of 45 years to cancer, George Gilson finally got that permit to construct some multipurpose buildings in the Tenderloin, etc., etc. Halfway through the chronicle, my vignette focused on the victims of the PCs. Jane Bodmann didn't know where she and her daughter would go after they were evicted. Her husband was an abusive jerk, but at least he kept a roof over their heads when he was alive. The parents of Eugene Thomas have grown increasingly distant from one another as they continue to process the death of their only son, who was violently attacked while on a night on the town with his friends.

When you've got spells flying around, characters with 100HP, and all these weird monsters, I think by nature the violence becomes somewhat absurd and cartoonish. Vampire, on the other hand, while it can devolve into "vampire action heroes," at its best it should give violence weight and introspection.

For some reason the death of Ben Dixon is seared into my brain.

Robotech didn't pull its punches, that's for sure. For being a series cobbled together from a bunch of different source cartoons in Japan, it told a heck of a story.

 

[briggart]

The Dark Knight did this too, with Chicago clearly standing in for Gotham. The car chase scene is probably the biggest set piece of the movie, but you’ve got a police escort trying to go down Lower Wacker and then top level through downtown, and again, it’s virtually empty of people and cars (except some parked ones specifically blown up by design). It’s not that the focus shouldn’t be on the action - it’s that the emptiness of the space feels wrong. Even if it’s “not really Chicago”, I can’t help but feel like it’s off.

Having just rewatched the Dark Knight, I think it’s implied streets were empty because traffic had been blocked to allow for the prisoner transport to pass through.

There’s a scene with a garbage collection truck honking to be allowed through and the local policeman saying they have to wait like everybody else.

 

[TiQuinn]

Having just rewatched the Dark Knight, I think it’s implied streets were empty because traffic had been blocked to allow for the prisoner transport to pass through.

There’s a scene with a garbage collection truck honking to be allowed through and the local policeman saying they have to wait like everybody else.

I think that was The Dark Knight Rises, but even still, regardless of whether you explain away why the streets are deserted, that’s also just not realistic. Something does get lost in the storytelling of action scenes when you make sure that the field is clear. Again, I go back to a movie like To Live and Die in LA which featured a car chase down the wrong way of an LA freeway complete with the reactions of everyday people scrambling to get out of the way of these cars, and that realism gave greater weight to the scene. Sure, they could’ve said, the freeway was closed for repairs and it’s just another freeway chase. I feel like a lot of modern movies make this second choice.

 

[Ryujin]

I think that was The Dark Knight Rises, but even still, regardless of whether you explain away why the streets are deserted, that’s also just not realistic. Something does get lost in the storytelling of action scenes when you make sure that the field is clear. Again, I go back to a movie like To Live and Die in LA which featured a car chase down the wrong way of an LA freeway complete with the reactions of everyday people scrambling to get out of the way of these cars, and that realism gave greater weight to the scene. Sure, they could’ve said, the freeway was closed for repairs and it’s just another freeway chase. I feel like a lot of modern movies make this second choice.

Yup, a chase definitely hits differently when there are human obstacles.

 

[trappedslider]

Yup, a chase definitely hits differently when there are human obstacles.

Also hits differently when you don't clear it with the city first

 

[TiQuinn]

Also hits differently when you don't clear it with the city first

Yeah can you imagine what would’ve been said today if that happened?