The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[overgeeked]

And we’re already back to that quote from Harlan that started it all. Informed opinion is what counts. “I read it on the internet so it must be true.” Good times.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And we’re already back to that quote from Harlan that started it all. Informed opinion is what counts. ”I read it on the internet so it must be true.” Good times.

No one is saying informed opinion isn't what counts. They are just saying someone coming into a conversation with an opinion they garnered off the net that you don't think is correct, or even that isn't correct, doesn't justify being cruel or obnoxious. By the same token them thinking they have deep insight because of questionable information they got on the internet, doesn't justify them being cruel either. The best course of action is to point out where the person's information is wrong and provide better facts than them. And if you can do it win a cordial way, you stand a much better chance of persuading them of their error. But most disagreements are rarely this simple or easy.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And he wasn't immune to the common smart person's issue of thinking he knew more about topics he didn't....

This is the other half of the equation here in my mind. That is a very easy trap to fall into

 

[Autumnal]

Harlan Ellison? Massive walking completely justified ego.

He didn't suffer fools gladly. The fools generally got upset by that. So a lot of people think he was a jerk.

This is a man who boasted about mailing (on various occasions) excrement and dead animals to people he felt had offended him. He groped Connie Willis on stage and never felt he’d done anything wrong. He was horrible to a lot of people over the decades who were trying to work with him in professional capacities. He hogged credit and gloried in getting away with workplace abuse, and singlehanded suppressed some of the best sf of his time, for the rest of his entire life, contributing materially to dragging down careers and being cruel to anyone uncool enough to point it out.

He was also capable of great generosity and kindness. Most of us will never be in a position to do as much lifesaving good as he did. But most of us will never deliver as much verbal and mental abuse, stress, and manipulation of trauma as he did, either. Most of us will never do something as significant as assembling Dangerous Visions. Most of us will also never do something as destructive as hoarding The Last Dangerous Visions. And in the whole I think that matters: there is no one-dimensional edger of karma like a number line where you can push it way, way to one side but it’s okay as long as you also push a lot in the other.

 

[overgeeked]

This is a man who boasted about mailing (on various occasions) excrement and dead animals to people he felt had offended him.

Did he only boast about it or did he actually do it? Isn't that illegal? If he'd actually done so he could have been fined or charged. Is there a record of him being fined or charged?

He groped Connie Willis on stage and never felt he’d done anything wrong.

If she says he groped her, then he groped her. End of. I recall him writing an apology. But it's up to Connie Willis to forgive him for that. I've seen the video. It looks like the tips of his fingers tap her upper chest, as if to draw her closer. It's worth noting that she did not react at all in the moment. Not verbally, not visibly. But again, if she says he groped her, then he groped her.

He was horrible to a lot of people over the decades who were trying to work with him in professional capacities. He hogged credit and gloried in getting away with workplace abuse, and singlehanded suppressed some of the best sf of his time, for the rest of his entire life, contributing materially to dragging down careers and being cruel to anyone uncool enough to point it out.

I'm assuming you're referring to the unpublished Last Dangerous Visions. Sorry, Bruce. I respect you and your writing. But unless you were involved with this directly or heard from those who were directly involved, you're making a long string of assumptions. Or relying on the internet rumor mill. Quite a few of the authors took their shorts and published them elsewhere. Harlan did not lock away the stories or the rights to the stories. There was no hoarding. The anthology was not published. Many of the stories were. It's worth noting that since Harlan's passing, JMS (of Babylon 5 fame who is the executor of Harlan's estate) has arranged for Last to be published.

He was also capable of great generosity and kindness. Most of us will never be in a position to do as much lifesaving good as he did. But most of us will never deliver as much verbal and mental abuse, stress, and manipulation of trauma as he did, either. Most of us will never do something as significant as assembling Dangerous Visions. Most of us will also never do something as destructive as hoarding The Last Dangerous Visions. And in the whole I think that matters: there is no one-dimensional edger of karma like a number line where you can push it way, way to one side but it’s okay as long as you also push a lot in the other.

Yes, like every human ever, Harlan Ellison was a complicated person with both good and bad to his credit. I'm not objecting to nuance in his description. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to put some nuance into the description of the man.

 

[Ryujin]

And he wasn't immune to the common smart person's issue of thinking he knew more about topics he didn't, or things like his sometimes questionable interpersonal behavior.

I work with professors, daily. Tell me about it

 

[Bedrockgames]

Did he only boast about it or did he actually do it? Isn't that illegal? If he'd actually done so he could have been fined or charged. Is there a record of him being fined or charged?

If she says he groped her, then he groped her. End of. I recall him writing an apology. But it's up to Connie Willis to forgive him for that. I've seen the video. It looks like the tips of his fingers tap her upper chest, as if to draw her closer. It's worth noting that she did not react at all in the moment. Not verbally, not visibly. But again, if she says he groped her, then he groped her.

I'm assuming you're referring to the unpublished Last Dangerous Visions. Sorry, Bruce. I respect you and your writing. But unless you were involved with this directly or heard from those who were directly involved, you're making a long string of assumptions. Or relying on the internet rumor mill. Quite a few of the authors took their shorts and published them elsewhere. Harlan did not lock away the stories or the rights to the stories. There was no hoarding. The anthology was not published. Many of the stories were. It's worth noting that since Harlan's passing, JMS (of Babylon 5 fame who is the executor of Harlan's estate) has arranged for Last to be published.

Yes, like every human ever, Harlan Ellison was a complicated person with both good and bad to his credit. I'm not objecting to nuance in his description. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to put some nuance into the description of the man.

Personally I share many of your sentiments. The internet and forums are not great for litigating the nuance of a complicated man like Ellison. And rumors and hearsay often get treated as truth. I don't think it's helpful for us to argue about how good or bad a human being Ellison was. This was really more about a side point where Ellison was merely used as an example more than anything else

 

[payn]

Don’t know where else to say this but boo Starz , boo. First they cancel Heels and now Shining Vale. Not just cancelled but pulling from streaming!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I interacted with Harlan a few times before his death. There was no need to treat people the way he did much of the time. Excusing toxic behavior in the case of Great Man X or Y is simply excusing toxic behavior generally, because the "naughty word" folks will always believe themselves to be great and therefore justified in their behavior.

And they never are.

 

[prabe]

I prefer to think of him as a massive walking (somewhat justified) ego.

He described himself as tending to leave "Harlan-sized holes" in things. His ego was, I think well-justified, the way he tended to treat people wasn't. The thing about all the stories he told about the people he had disagreements or disputes or feuds with is that he was the one telling them. I am not convinced he was an entirely reliable narrator--I do not doubt for a moment his honesty, just the accuracy of his perceptions.