The issue of super strength

[Massawyrm]

d20 powers balance

Actually the question of balance is a fairly easy one to solve without much alteration to the system. I did it by creating the Power (PWR) stat, a stat that is only possess by powers, and is based directly off of WILL (for mentally derived powers) and FORT (for physically derived powers). All contest and DC rolls for the powers are based off of PWR, and certain abilities for the powers are unlocked with specific PWR levels or ECL.

 

[Silverthrone]

The point of a super hero game however, is to be a super hero (Usually.).

D20 is too limited to effectively accomplish that past the most basic level. The D20 system was not designed to be a very multigenre game. it is just a combination of 2e material given a few alterations to make it simpler. It is no more fit for super heroes than 2e was.

A super hero is just that, super.

Even Thor, the strongest god in a pantheon Deities and Demigods isn't even close to Superman in strength or speed, and Supes is far from the most powerful chracter in comics.

Doing stats for chracters like Goku, Superman, Silver Surfer, Thor, Darkseid, Galactus or Mr. Majestic is beyond the basic scope of D20. Some of these people can destroy galaxies without even trying hard.

People, at least the people I play with, do not want watered down versions of their favorite super hero, they want as close as reasonable to the hero they have read about.

It basically comes down to D20's insistence that a chracter be made to fit the system rather than ensuring adaptability of rules to allow the rules to be made to fit the chracter.

The best of the super hero systems, in my opinion, was the old DC Mayfair one used in Blood of Heroes. It allows for nearly any power the chracter could have through the use of misc. bonuses, drawbacks, advatages, and disadvatanges.

 

[Great Umbrage]

The above poster is correct, for the most part, that the d20 system is actually quite limited in the sense that it provides a strictly linear progression of...well, everything. It really does not lend itself to the flavor of superhero comics.

While I think certain archetypes are definitely present in the superhero genre (how many Superman-clones are there?) and the class-level system may capture this fairly well, that's about it as far as it goes for d20's strengths. I briefly summarized the issue of high Strength in a thread on the D&D rules board, but in short, d20 is good for mere mortal gaming.

Thus, it's not exactly suited for levels of play above 20th-level. The ELH and D&Dg had some intrinsic problems, what with the super-high skill and ability modifiers. Same thing goes with superhero d20. While it might make some sense that someone with a +100 to some skill would outdo any mere mortal, that's not how it always goes in comics. The scale is, in fact, quite different in comics and in d20 fantasy.

Still, I would check out Mutants & Masterminds when it comes out, if only for the innovations it makes. The independent superhero d20 toolkits and games out right now are adequate, but really not all that great. Previous games, wherein the system was built around the superhero genre, are still far superior...even the otherwise limited MSH Saga system game that came out a few years ago. I personally shy away from Hero System 5th Ed., because I really don't think I get enough return on the investment in such a complex rules system. It reminds me too much of Rolemaster (Chartmaster).

I'm not saying this to flame the people who have tried to and published superhero d20 games; I tried doing a conversion a while back and came out disappointed, as disappointed as I am with all of the conversions out there. Will I try again incorporating d20 Modern? Probably not. As I said, it's a systems issue. Unless I or someone else can find suitable adjustment to the d20 rules...well, then it wouldn't be d20 anymore.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

The reason d20 fails to lend itself to other genres (or even Epic rules; but thats another discussion) is because all too often it totally ignores any semblance of logic.

Hopefully 4th Edition will cut out the stupidity.

Also in response to some of Silverthrones comments:

Silver Surfer can shatter planets with the power cosmic, as can Thor with his godly esence strike..

Doing stats for chracters like Goku, Superman, Silver Surfer, Thor, Darkseid, Galactus or Mr. Majestic is beyond the basic scope of D20. Some of these people can destroy galaxies without even trying hard.

I doubt any of these could destroy a galaxy; certainly not in and of their own power.

Galactus (and later incarnations of Goku) can devastate a planet true, but none of the others (with the possible exception of Superman) mentioned (I am unfamiliar with Mr Majestic) can.

Darkseid; Silver Surfer and Thor, in and of their own power could probably (at best) destroy a city.

Stats for such beings are possible; but problems stem from d20s contrived nuances.

 

[RangerWickett]

Quick question though . . . do you ever play characters that strong? I mean, Nat20's FCTF could handle characters of 5000th level, who can deal enough damage to tear a hole through the Earth's crust and scoop out the magma, but how do you run a game like that? I've never understood the gaming style where deity-powered foes are actually possible and common.

I might have one villain who is supremely powerful, in which case there'd be pretty much no way for the PCs to beat on him to death (they'd need some sort of help to defeat him; think Chaos in Dragons of Summer Flame). That could be fun for me. But to consistently have foes who could destroy the world, or even just lay waste to city blocks with a snap of their fingers . . . well, at that level, I'd pretty much never have fights, and just focus solely on roleplaying, since I, as a GM, could think of very few foes that could legitimately threaten them with physical harm.

FCTF works best up to . . . oh, let's say it tops out at 50th level or so. I personally would rarely need to go beyond 20th level, but up to 50, I think I could still swing it; I'd just need fewer fights and more political and psychological foes. But I'd never want or need player characters who can destroy whole planets. Like in Kingdom Come, having power like that flying around willy-nilly will eventually lead to so many things being blown up that everyone is dead.

If you want to, more power to ya, but for me, the optimal play level is 10th to 20th, say from DareDevil to Spider-man.

 

[Toj]

I play characters that powerful.... well... characters like Superman, Thanos, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, Thor, etc...

Those games are quite enjoyable and there are numerous ways to challenge the PC's. There are also numerous other powerful NPC's.

UK is right, in that d20 has a lot of logic problems. That's why you just take the good stuff from d20 (which is relative) and figure out the other stuff through analyzing and testing.

I am more than happy with how things are going for me.

 

[Silverthrone]

Superman would be one that couyld not destroy a galaxy. Supes is at planet destroying level.

Goku could wipe out a galaxy by SSJ3 (Brolly did it at SSJ1.), Gohan after his mystic power up could wipe out the universe.

Silver Surfer blew up a large planetoid, Thor cracked the armor of a Celestial and generated as much power as the sun, and Galactus and Tyrant destroyed many galaxies in one of their battles.

Those guys can blow up galxies. I may even be able to get issue numbers on some of those.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ryan mate!

Quick question though . . . do you ever play characters that strong?

Quick answer; yes.

I mean, Nat20's FCTF could handle characters of 5000th level, who can deal enough damage to tear a hole through the Earth's crust and scoop out the magma, but how do you run a game like that? I've never understood the gaming style where deity-powered foes are actually possible and common.

At its most basic level its simply a logical extension of the game.

One of the problems many people attribute to such a game is that it is merely flattering to decieve; with ever increasing numbers being used.

Which is why I advocate that maintaining an ultra-high level campaign HAS to be about more than simple escalation of personal power. Hence the worship points system element to divinity which works on numerous strata - resource management aspects; divine 'achilles heel'; broadened roleplaying horizons (taking control of servants and worshippers as well as the deity itself) - all of which marries neatly together.

If we apply these tenets to a Superhero game then its probably akin to Karma and Popularity. Did the Fantastic Four fail to rescue the school bus in time? Was 4 Freedoms Plaza destroyed in a Bomb Blast? etc.

I might have one villain who is supremely powerful, in which case there'd be pretty much no way for the PCs to beat on him to death (they'd need some sort of help to defeat him; think Chaos in Dragons of Summer Flame). That could be fun for me.

Generally you just have to know your enemy and know yourself (to paraphrase Sun Tzu).

Just as you don't have low level characters fighting Balors - a demigod will have to respect that there are certain creatures or individuals you just don't pick a fight with.

In the comics, no one (short of cosmic level entities) goes looking to clean Galactus clock for him. Yet its still possible for Galactus to be used as an NPC as it were.

In the Marvel Universe Thor is no match for Galactus, but under certain circumstances or with certain allies or with certain items Thor has been able to defeat the World Eater on a number of occasions (causing him to retreat, abandoning his current objective).

But to consistently have foes who could destroy the world, or even just lay waste to city blocks with a snap of their fingers . . . well, at that level, I'd pretty much never have fights, and just focus solely on roleplaying, since I, as a GM, could think of very few foes that could legitimately threaten them with physical harm.

Naturally you don't have to employ a conveyor belt of cosmic heavyweights and planet threatening encounters.

Like any game you vary the measure of encounters.

Not to blow my own trumpet (too much) but this is one of the strengths of the worship points system in that it allows you to cover the whole spectrum of gaming; not simply focus around the deities themselves, the worshippers are also an integral part.

FCTF works best up to . . . oh, let's say it tops out at 50th level or so. I personally would rarely need to go beyond 20th level, but up to 50, I think I could still swing it; I'd just need fewer fights and more political and psychological foes.

From my experience the higher you ascend the less physical the contests. It becomes a lot more cerebral and political. Any physical contest will see deities grasping for every conceivable advantage.

Its somthing like a game of poker (worshippers are your chips and your personal power is the hand of cards you're holding), its all down to how much you are willing to gamble. Then if another deity calls your bluff you either have to deliver the goods (defeat them) or fold (retreat to fight another day).

But I'd never want or need player characters who can destroy whole planets.

I agree, that, even for me, is distasteful. Though we have encountered planetary scale threats (albeit very rarely).

But allowing the PCs that sort of power will likely disrupt the campaign beyond repair and I don't think really lends itself to prolonged play anyway.

Like in Kingdom Come, having power like that flying around willy-nilly will eventually lead to so many things being blown up that everyone is dead.

I'm not familiar with Kingdom Come? (did a quick Google search) The DC comics?

If you want to, more power to ya, but for me, the optimal play level is 10th to 20th, say from DareDevil to Spider-man.

Exactly, each to their own. I was always more of a Mighty Thor fan myself.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Toj mate!

UK is right, in that d20 has a lot of logic problems. That's why you just take the good stuff from d20 (which is relative) and figure out the other stuff through analyzing and testing.

From what I have found a lot of the d20 fundamentals really need changing though!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Silverthrone!

Superman would be one that couyld not destroy a galaxy. Supes is at planet destroying level.

Superman could destroy Earth by flying into it at light speed but I very much doubt he would survive such an endeavour! So sacrificing yourself to destroy a planet is not my idea of being a planet destroyer.

Goku could wipe out a galaxy by SSJ3 (Brolly did it at SSJ1.), Gohan after his mystic power up could wipe out the universe.

A lot of the DragonballZ shenanigans ultimately end up like the Infinity Gauntlet affairs.

Silver Surfer blew up a large planetoid,

Unless he was additionally empowered by Galactus at the time I doubt it could have been that large a planetoid. Though the Silver Surfer is technically more powerful than Thor (although not the current Thor, who now has the Odinforce), I very much doubt that he could destroy even Earths moon in and of his own power?

Thor cracked the armor of a Celestial and generated as much power as the sun,

The blast radius for Thors Anti-Force blast through which he channeled the planets magnetic energy as well (which was actually incapable of damaging a celestial) was at best about a mile.

He subsequently flew onto the other celestials head and managed to penetrate its armour with his most powerful blow.

and Galactus and Tyrant destroyed many galaxies in one of their battles.

Implausible. I would say that their battles could have devastated (laid waste to) galaxies but not destroyed it outright.

ie. World War 2 devastated (laid waste to) Europe but didn't destroy it.

Those guys can blow up galxies. I may even be able to get issue numbers on some of those.

I am pretty sure there is almost no one in Marvel Cosmology that can destroy a galaxy in and of their own power. Certainly Thanos (or anyone with the Infinity Gauntlet); technically the Beyonder (or anyone in possession of a cosmic cube, though there must be limitations for a single cube since having more than one made a difference); plausibly the Infinites (who enigmatically appeared in a mini-series not so long ago and Eternity was the size of one of their thumbnails); potentially Korvac (in the Marvel What If where he didn't commit suicide).

Other than that the Living Tribunal is the big boy on the block and I doubt he can destroy a galaxy (he did make Earths Sun nova though) which would have made a mess of part of the galaxy...eventually.