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The issue with wizards and sorcerers
- Thread starter Alexanderone
- Start date
Alexanderone
First Post
gotcha just for refrence is that in the players handbook or spell compeemdium.
Dandu
First Post
The spell description is in the Player's Handbook and in the SRD, as is the description of what it means to be called.
krupintupple
First Post
a great and free link for a lot of info on D&D can be found below. it's got searches and nicely itemized lists. it's definitely a help!
The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org
however, like you've mentioned the issue probably is that you've seen some fairly weak tactics from the likes of people who aren't familiar with spellcasters. could someone maybe post a 9th level wizard or cleric build that would demonstrate superiority over an equivalent-level paladin, fighter or ranger? failing that, maybe just some "obvious" tips that really set the spellcasters out well in front of the melee types?
my suggestion to the OP, is the druid. when wildshaped and using natural spell, they're typically far superior in melee to the front-line classes, since they can do everything the warrior-types can, plus heal, shapeshift, and use magic, etc.
The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org
however, like you've mentioned the issue probably is that you've seen some fairly weak tactics from the likes of people who aren't familiar with spellcasters. could someone maybe post a 9th level wizard or cleric build that would demonstrate superiority over an equivalent-level paladin, fighter or ranger? failing that, maybe just some "obvious" tips that really set the spellcasters out well in front of the melee types?
my suggestion to the OP, is the druid. when wildshaped and using natural spell, they're typically far superior in melee to the front-line classes, since they can do everything the warrior-types can, plus heal, shapeshift, and use magic, etc.
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krupintupple
First Post
you are too good!
could i bother you to maybe, perhaps, if you could, paint out a hypothetical scenario, for the benefit of the OP, on how this guy would completely ruin a melee-folk's day? maybe arena style, just to give both sides equal footing?
Dandu
First Post
There's too many situational variables that go into deciding what tactics to use, but targeting a weak save with a spell will generally be enough to incapacitate the enemy, while defensive buffs like Mirror Image, Wings of Cover, Fly, and Ruin Delver's Fortune keep the caster out of reach.
Wings of Flurry basically stunlocks an enemy who fails the reflex save vs damage, while Grease requires a DC 10 balance check to move out of the Greased area in addition to a reflex save to avoid falling down or, if cast on a weapon, demands a reflex save every round to retain the weapon.
Given that the average fighter has heavy full plate and does not have good reflex saves, this is going to prove heavily problematic.
Glitterdust blinds on a failed Will save, which will generally be even worse than the reflex save since archery or two weapon fighters have high dexterity.
Stinking Cloud won't work too well for disabling, but it's great for creating a smokescreen.
After the enemy has been incapacitated, there's the choice of either casting Magic Missile (augmented with metamagic so it drains levels or inflicts a strength penalty) or Wings of Flurry until they die.
This is to say nothing of the out of combat utility provided by Alter Self, Flight, Dispel Magic, and the ability to call in spells via the Spellpool.
Wings of Flurry basically stunlocks an enemy who fails the reflex save vs damage, while Grease requires a DC 10 balance check to move out of the Greased area in addition to a reflex save to avoid falling down or, if cast on a weapon, demands a reflex save every round to retain the weapon.
Given that the average fighter has heavy full plate and does not have good reflex saves, this is going to prove heavily problematic.
Glitterdust blinds on a failed Will save, which will generally be even worse than the reflex save since archery or two weapon fighters have high dexterity.
Stinking Cloud won't work too well for disabling, but it's great for creating a smokescreen.
After the enemy has been incapacitated, there's the choice of either casting Magic Missile (augmented with metamagic so it drains levels or inflicts a strength penalty) or Wings of Flurry until they die.
This is to say nothing of the out of combat utility provided by Alter Self, Flight, Dispel Magic, and the ability to call in spells via the Spellpool.
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pawsplay
Hero
Basically, an optimized melee can just keep pace numerically with a cleric, druid, or other buffer, and they can't do the other cool stuff. And the ToB classes are actually not all that hot; after more than a few rounds, a fighter or barbie can catch up in damage output. Where fighters excel is in their versaility and their feats, but getting that into play can be a big problem. You can't disarm anybody if you're on the wrong side of a wall of blades.
So in summary, even though the fighter is stereotyped as a "meat shield," a necessary pillar of the party, in actual play, he's kind of a fifth-man class, more like a bard. There are things a fighter can do that virtually no other class can do, but in order to do them, he has to not be blind, paralyzed, held, dead, levitated, behind a wall, grappled by a Huge creature, or weaponless.
So practically speaking, wizard and cleric is a better party than a fighter and any other character. A fighter can be a decent third man, but he's competing with a rogue, bard, or multicassed wizard for that spot. At the fourth and fifth party members, you can talk about a fighter making more of a difference. Don't expect to be the star of the show, though.
Pathfinder goes a long way toward fixing the fighter, by beefing up his abilities, and weakening competitive abilities, like wildshape, animal companions, summon monsters, and so forth.
So in summary, even though the fighter is stereotyped as a "meat shield," a necessary pillar of the party, in actual play, he's kind of a fifth-man class, more like a bard. There are things a fighter can do that virtually no other class can do, but in order to do them, he has to not be blind, paralyzed, held, dead, levitated, behind a wall, grappled by a Huge creature, or weaponless.
So practically speaking, wizard and cleric is a better party than a fighter and any other character. A fighter can be a decent third man, but he's competing with a rogue, bard, or multicassed wizard for that spot. At the fourth and fifth party members, you can talk about a fighter making more of a difference. Don't expect to be the star of the show, though.
Pathfinder goes a long way toward fixing the fighter, by beefing up his abilities, and weakening competitive abilities, like wildshape, animal companions, summon monsters, and so forth.
DumbPaladin
First Post
I got Earth Reavered when flying 6 inches off the ground ... after debating for a few minutes and reading the very sparse spell description, I ended up falling down from 6 inches after taking the damage.
It's a nasty spell.
Alexanderone, I would suggest, very kindly, that you may not have played D&D with someone who knows how to truly optimize a wizard. If and when you do, you may understand how they can become too large of a problem for some DMs to handle. Not all, but some.
Do I know people who can make a level 20 fighter who can do a decent job against a level 20 wizard? Sure, but they're very rare. I would say even a mediocre player with a level 20 wizard is likely to run ramshod over some decent players with other classes...
