D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Vaalingrade]

Okay but... what does this actually look like in practice?



Expertise in Investigation, sure.



Expertise in Air Vehicles, okay



Expertise in Land Vehicles, cool.



So... shadow monk or rogue? Let's stick with Rogue, he's mundane after all.



Oh dang, that's just monk. Maybe use the Fighting Style at least?



So... skill prof in history and "arcana" since that is the closest we can get to science.


Let's ignore the convolution of the "top 10 martial artist" for just a moment. How could we possibly get Expertise in a single skill, two other skills, and expertise in land and air vehicles?

Uh... two levels in Rogue? Okay, technically you only need a single level in rogue to get all of that, but Batman is very fast and sneaky, so I gave him the second level so he can have Cunning Action. Oh, and technically you can't get tool expertise like this from Expertise, but I've never met a DM who wouldn't let you downgrade like that, so it should be fine.

So, get the tool proficiencies from his background, he also gets Thieves Tools which covers the that.

Total of 7 skills, let's put Expertise in Investigation with the Skill Prodigy feat, which also gets us another skill. Stealth, Sleight of Hand, History, Perception, "Science", Medicine, Athletics? That covers more than you even stated.

Now, I'm sure you'll start coming up with "well actually!"s to say that I totally forgot that Batman can also [blank!] but even if you get me up to level 6 or 8 as a rogue... that's kind of it. Variant Human Rogue covers a huge swath of batman's skills and abilities, most of which would be seen as... utter wastes of time for most players. They wouldn't take land and air vehicle expertise, because that is frankly not worth it. Then they can get expertise in Stealth and Perception.


The thing is... low-level DnD characters are ALREADY highly skilled, polygot warriors who have mastered a wide variety of forms and techniques. People just insist that they aren't.

You know, it Bruce failed at what he was trying to do as often as someone with Expertise does, Bane would be out of a job and we'd all be stuck with Azreal.

 

[Minigiant]

Media balances these things largely via metacurrency. I certainly wouldn't advocate that method in D&D.

Media usually does it by weakening the Supers in the Normal's field.

Superman alone= Superman is smart
Superman and Batman in Justice League= Superman is super strong farmboy with laser eyes. Batman is genius at 18 things.
Who leads Teen Titans: Usually one of the nonsuper smart Robin. Aliens, robots, science accidents, and demigods = Morons who need to follow the smart and/or charismatic normie.

Or the Supers suck at tech or stealth or detection.

Or they do give them some limitation like "can't use guns".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Media usually does it by weakening the Supers in the Normal's field.

Superman alone= Superman is smart
Superman and Batman in Justice League= Superman is super strong farmboy with laser eyes. Batman is genius at 18 things.
Who leads Teen Titans: Usually one of the nonsuper smart Robin. Aliens, robots, science accidents, and demigods = Morons who need to follow the smart and/or charismatic normie.

Or the Supers suck at tech or stealth or detection.

Or they do give them some limitation like "can't use guns".

That's all meta stuff. Narrative games are better at handling wide power disparities. Games like D&D mostly force them out of existence.

 

[dave2008]

I'd prefer 2 different classes myself 2, 3, or even 6 lines.

But the option of "At level 10, choose Mundane, Supernatural, or Overt Magical" as a fork is an option.

It doesn't matter how many classes, I am talking about power within a class. I want each class to be able to evolve to supernatural levels that we see in a lot of fiction. If you don't want that style of game, you just don't play at those levels - simple.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

"Well Ackually"

That's expertise in at least 2 skills and 2 tools and proficiency in 4-5 other skills according to your post. So you are looking at multiple feats and classes and DM help according to your post.

No - I think everything they presented was pretty much by the book. Technically multiclassing is optional, but it is in the book

 

[dave2008]

The same way media does.

The Mundane Martial grow mostly horizontially in skills and knowledge you typically can't get reliably in number with magic and in ways that outclass dabblers.
The Supernatural Martial grow rapidly vertically in one area and creatively attempts to hammer it into every problem as nails.

It's only D&D and D&Desque clones that remain genre blind to the concept so hard that they end up blindly fandoms to the simple paths.

not of the same "class" like the example i gave.

 

[Minigiant]

That's all meta stuff. Narrative games are better at handling wide power disparities. Games like D&D mostly force them out of existence.

Not really.

Writers typically don't write the Normals to compete with the Supers in the same field. Because it often doesn't make sense in universe. If there are Super Strong magical people, you don't try to outstrong them without magic.

The issue with D&D is their poster boy for a Mundane Martial is a Clumsy Dumb Slow but Strong Tank. Unless you remove some of the negatives, you lock yourself into the archetype needing or being supernatural.

 

[dave2008]

If you pull the Mountain to double digit levels you are growing out his mental/physical knowledge horizontally to a skill expert OR increasing his strength vertically to a giant.

Wait, that is basically what I have been advocating - the mountain is level 9-10. Higher level "mountain" is as strong as a giant - aka supernatural. So are we on the same page?

 

[dave2008]

Not really.

Writers typically don't write the Normals to compete with the Supers in the same field. Because it often doesn't make sense in universe. If there are Super Strong magical people, you don't try to outstrong them without magic.

The issue with D&D is their poster boy for a Mundane Martial is a Clumsy Dumb Slow but Strong Tank. Unless you remove some of the negatives, you lock yourself into the archetype needing or being supernatural.

Now I am back to think that we were never talking about the same thing.

 

[Minigiant]

It doesn't matter how many classes, I am talking about power within a class. I want each class to be able to evolve to supernatural levels to we see in a lot of fiction. If you don't want that style of game, you just don't play at those levels - simple.

I'm not saying you can't have the Supernatural.

I just want the "Snipe you for XDX bonus damage at 1000 feet away" like the high level nonsupernatural martials of various media.