D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Not quite.

The problem is that magical is used to refer to three different things, but the game only cares about two of them. All spells are treated consistently, no confusion there.

except of a god's magic

All magical items are treated consistently, no confusion.

except artifacts.

But then it uses the word "magic" to refer to other types of energy, and things get murky, only because anti-magic was designed to handle spells and magical items.

Take Anti-Magic out of the equation, and everything functions perfectly fine, but because we keep trying to divide out "this is magical" "this is not magical" but the term magic is being used in multiple different ways... it creates confusion. It doesn't treat anything differently, the confusion comes because the word was used in places that make sense, but in different ways.

While a agree that 5e RAW could be cleaned up by revising or eliminating anti-magic (perhaps dispel magic too). That is not what interest me. I know to much and I would prefer the rules acknowledge there is more than type of fantasy. I can play a fantasy RPG and not just handwave everything because: "it is fantasy." As always, I have stated this is my preference, I don't need anyone to share it (except my group of players).

 

[Chaosmancer]

And here we circle back again to perspective.
I don't think we need to coach players to recognize that certain abilities are beyond what can occur in the real world. Those players live in the real world their entire lives and should be pretty familiar with its limitations by the time they get to the game.

Where the coaching could/should reasonably happen would be how to visualize the abilities from a setting perspective. Is their character just that strong in the setting or are they fortified with supernatural blessings, or whatever.

And the game absolutely could provide these..but for each one they provide, they cut out alternatives in all possible settings.

Where the mechanics are indifferent, I see no need to limit possibilities.

Agreed mostly, but I'd take it a step further.

Most DnD settings are too broad with too many power sources to care. I'll give an example, which requires a minor homebrew rule to properly work.

You have a party, that party has a Human Zealot Barbarian, a Goliath Rune Knight Fighter and a Dwarf Open Hand Monk using Iron Body (essentially a rule that allows for swapping strength for dex in any monk ability that calls out dex, including Unarmored Defense). All three of these characters are supernaturally strong.

• The human is supernaturally strong because they have been blessed by the God of War and channels the might of their dead platoon through their body.
• The Goliath is supernaturally strong because he has the blood of giants, and supplements that strength with traditional giant magic passed down through the ages.
• The dwarf is supernaturally strong because he trained his body past petty things like "limits", turning himself into a living weapon.

In the same setting, the same "end goal" can be achieved through multiple means. I want the mechanics indifferent not only so it can match different settings, but also so it can match different characters. Someone wants to play a pious champion fighter blessed by the Iron King? Cool, that works. Someone wants to play a Battlemaster Fighter who speaks with his dead father, who was a master warrior and channels the strength of their lineage? Awesome, that works. Someone wants to play a Rune Knight whose runes are just stand-ins for tech from the 22nd century? Cool, that works (mostly because I don't use Anti-Magic fields, so the distinction is entirely immaterial)

 

[dave2008]

None of that matches up to the assertion you made that not forcing fantasy to be grounded in reality would make that fantasy mundane.

It is a matter of perspective. None of what I propose limits what martial characters can do (which seems to be your fear), in fact, we already expand what they can do beyond 4e and incorporate many 4e elements (and beyond) in our 5e game.

You seem to want to accuse me of wanting to take away something fun, I am not. Conversely, you seem to want to say that we play fantasy wrong (i.e. grounded in reality). I don't think we do.

I don't know who to discuss this with you because you always seem to take my intent incorrectly. Could be my fault, could be yours, probably both. Regardless, we are not able to communicate effectively with each other.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I can't speak to other people - but that is pretty much what I want. That was my first post in this thread. I want a mundane class or two that can do all the wildly possible things (probably about everything the current lvl 20 can do + more) in about the first 10 levels. Though, I also think level 20 is OK. (just not my preference).

I want the character to be able to continue to grow in power, able to kill the interdimensional dragon, if you the players what to play in that type of game. It is an option. That is the whole point of what I am saying, just acknowledge for those who want that it is supernatural.

No, it is not a restriction but I means to allow freedom. Also, I would absolutely apply this concept to all classes for balance reasons. That does not mean classes can't get magic, but would look at how magic balances with the mundane character and go from there.

Right, but that's the problem. How does Boromir fight Godzilla? And if he is that strong, that fast, that skilled that he CAN fight Godzilla... why isn't he strong enough to break steel, fast enough to run up a building, and skilled enough to sew shut wounds and heal people?

Now, if you agree that he is that strong, that fast, that skilled... but you want to label him as merely "extraordinary" instead of "supernatural" so that it is clear he can do his things in an anti-magic field... go ahead? I couldn't care less about that, and frankly, Anti-magic fields let supernatural things happen so that is fine too. The only thing I don't want, is him having magic aka Spells, because then anti-magic and counter-spell apply, and he's basically a bladesinger anyways.

So, if this is only about the label and only because of anti-magic fields... then do whatever you want with the label. I'm much more concerned with the abilities.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe you can help me understand what benefit you are getting out of employing fantasy as your chosen genre to roleplay in then?

Because near as I can tell..if "Rule of cool" were a genre, fantasy would be that genre.

Fantasy does not necessarily mean, "no rules, do whatever you think is cool for no other reason". Your persistence in insisting it is is why we are at an impasse.

Fantasy is not everything. I honestly do not understand your perspective.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, but this is exactly the problem. If I ask you who wins in a fight, The Punisher or Lobo... the answer is obvious. Lobo wins. The guy can laugh in the face of missiles being fired at him, and get away with only some mussed hair. And, when the adventure gets to a high enough level, both Lobo and Punisher are facing gods. Lobo... can fight at that level. Frank Castle... can't.

But you want them both to be represented by the same class at the same level.



See, but over half of what you want the wizard player to know is already true. Dispel Magic ONLY works on SPELLS. You can't dispel magic on a magic item, it doesn't work, per how the spell is phrased. So, unless your wizard player thinks Lobo has an active spell effect on him, he won't expect Dispel Magic to work.

And, at least for me, I wouldn't expect Anti-Magic to work either. I wouldn't expect it to weaken a death knight, or a storm giant, or or really any non-caster. So, the only confusion I can see, is if the player thought his strength came from a magical object. But, again.... why would he? You don't see a Pit Fiend and think of using Anti-magic on it to take away its strength, because that just doesn't make sense.

I don't think @dave2008 ever said Frank and Lobo were the same level. They said they were the same class.

 

[Chaosmancer]

except of a god's magic

except artifacts.

A god's direct magic, not clerical magic in general. And sure, yeah, artifacts.

While a agree that 5e RAW could be cleaned up by revising or eliminating anti-magic (perhaps dispel magic too). That is not what interest me. I know to much and I would prefer the rules acknowledge there is more than type of fantasy. I can play a fantasy RPG and not just handwave everything because: "it is fantasy." As always, I have stated this is my preference, I don't need anyone to share it (except my group of players).

What you keep labeling as hand-waving, I'm calling being purposefully vague. I also know too much and acknowledge there are more types of fantasy than I can shake a wand of wonder at... and I want all of them to at least be viable.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think @dave2008 ever said Frank and Lobo were the same level. They said they were the same class.

I believe he did mean that, considering this section

To me, and for this example, these characters are both the same class. I want the game rules to be able to support both characters. I want it to be able to play a full game as Frank Castle and to be able to fantasy that I can do things at the limits of RL skill and ability. I also want to be able to play Lobo and be able to punch a god in the face. I want both.

By full game, I assume he means going to level 20. IF by full game he means going to level 9, then that is a completely different story.

 

[CreamCloud0]

While a agree that 5e RAW could be cleaned up by revising or eliminating anti-magic (perhaps dispel magic too). That is not what interest me. I know to much and I would prefer the rules acknowledge there is more than type of fantasy. I can play a fantasy RPG and not just handwave everything because: "it is fantasy." As always, I have stated this is my preference, I don't need anyone to share it (except my group of players).

personally i think anti-magic should be more prevalant but less all-or-nothing, magic is so much of an ultimate problem solver i think it needs to be curtailed a bit but just saying 'all your powers are useless here' isn't fun, we ought to have more specific anti-magic effects like 'no spells under 3rd', 'only transmutation, abjuration and enchantment' or 'all spells have their range reduced to 20ft'

 

[Micah Sweet]

I believe he did mean that, considering this section



By full game, I assume he means going to level 20. IF by full game he means going to level 9, then that is a completely different story.

Fair enough. To me, logic suggests you would have to move beyond what is possible in the real world at some point in order to plausibly engage high level threats.