D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

So...it's petty because it doesn't match what you want. But getting exactly what you want and denying other folks what they want, is not petty.

That's the crux of the entire argument. The insistence that your subjective preference is not subjective.

Some folks want all fighters to progress into being gods. Hercules, for one recent example that has been mentioned. Others do not want that, and think the status quo, which allows options for supernaturally enhanced fights and mundane ones, is working well. That's all this is, is a question of taste. Trying to prove to people that their taste is less logical than your taste...well, good luck with that.

Okay fine.

We will offer the new abilities only to Eldritch Knights, Psi Warriors, Rune Knights, Echo Knights, Samurai and Arcane Archers. Champion fighters, Battlemasters, Cavaliers, and Bannerets will be barred from getting these abilities. That way, only the magical classes can do extraordinary stuff, and everyone else can be objectively worse, just like you want. Because, these aren't replacing subclass abilities, these were meant to be added to the fighter directly.

I'm sure all these people who want mundane fighters will be perfectly happy being denied access to abilities until they decide to have access to supernatural powers, and players won't start taking the magical and supernatural subclasses who are just as good in combat but far superior out of combat since they just flat out get more abilities.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

The issue with comparing a character in a game with a superhero like Batman, Captain America or the Punisher is that these guys survive the big threats mostly through copious amounts of plot armor and their enemies forgetting the powers they have.

Batman isn't gonna survive a point blank attack from a guy who can destroy a planet and not be vaporized, and it's cool when Cap holds back Thanos, but then you remember that even the mostly indestructible Hulk couldn't stand against the titan, and you wonder how Steve's head doesn't explode when Thanos punches him.

This is can work in a narrative (mostly), but in a game I think it'd get silly with your normal guy being hit by a Hold Person then smashed by a hammer the size of a bus 17 times and being completely fine an hour later.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Actually, the world record is close to 1200 pounds, and "unofficially" just over 1200 pounds, so STR 40.

Now, frankly, the humans who are doing such things in real life would certainly qualify for having a special feature, such as Powerful Build, in which case a STR 20 would do it.

This doesn't sit well with me. Powerful build IIRC isn't even something a human in D&D can get. A mid level martial should be able to at least match mundane athletes, whist a high level one should be able to surpass them. Like not Hulk strong, but Captain America strong.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Batman isn't gonna survive a point blank attack from a guy who can destroy a planet and not be vaporized, and it's cool when Cap holds back Thanos, but then you remember that even the mostly indestructible Hulk couldn't stand against the titan, and you wonder how Steve's head doesn't explode when Thanos punches him.

Isn't Steve wielding Mjölnir then, giving him powers of Thor, thus making him way stronger and tougher than he'd normally be?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok. And is part of the 'fun' imagining and exploring differences that are fantastical in nature?

Yes, including why those things might be different and what implications for worldbuilding those differences might lead to.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes, including why those things might be different and what implications for worldbuilding those differences might lead to.

I actually agree with this stance in broad level, I really want fantasy worlds to be coherent. But this to me doesn't mean we need to explain everything that is different than on Earth. Some things simply can be different, and that's that.

 

[ezo]

This doesn't sit well with me. Powerful build IIRC isn't even something a human in D&D can get. A mid level martial should be able to at least match mundane athletes, whist a high level one should be able to surpass them. Like not Hulk strong, but Captain America strong.

Correct, it is not available normally unless you have a class feature (like Bear Totem) which grants it.

There are a lot of things WotC could have (and should have...) done IMO to make things work, at least matching real life, or certainly larger. I think Cap strong in Tier 3 is a good place, but not much before that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Most fantasy settings have one, singular magic system. Some have two. Very very very few have three.

Dungeons and Dragons has a minimum of SIX magic systems. And I could probably ferret out another three or four if I went digging.

We are not arguing "there are literally no rules". We are arguing "there are anywhere between six and ten sets of rules, all of which have exceptions. And each system can potentially mix. One size fits all answers are not going to work here."

Does every setting have all of those systems running simultaneously? I'd also note that each of those systems have their own rules for how they work and what you can and cannot do with them. It's complex, of course, but I have zero issues with complexity.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Isn't Steve wielding Mjölnir then, giving him powers of Thor, thus making him way stronger and tougher than he'd normally be?

I meant in Infinity War when Thanos arrives in Wakanda, he didn't have Mjolnir then. Still stopped Thanos hand and survived a punch, which was cool, but not really something he should be able to do.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think high level martials, especially those that function on strength should be able to perform superhuman feats of strength, but they cannot even come close to what completely mundane normal humans in the real world are capable of.

Recently in my campaign the characters have needed to move around certain rather heavy object, they obtained from a giant. (A magical stone cube.) By the actual rules the high Str characters are pathetically weak. We have two characters with Str 19, so one would imagine, that this would not be an issue, but no. Under the variant encumbrance rules even the stone giant from which this cube was obtained from (the stone would fit on one palm of the giant) would be encumbered if it tried to carry two of them. And whilst the characters could lift it, they could not carry it. (I totally did let them carry it, but I did the math later and realised that this should have not been possible by the rules. I also had the giant to throw a boulder that was way bigger than this stone cube which it by the rules probably couldn't even lift.)

Meanwhile deadlift world record is 1100 pounds, which would in D&D require strength of 37!

That is an indication that the rules are broken and should be fixed. Fix them, find 3pp, or complain at WotC until they do it (ha ha). If you know of a fourth option I'd love to hear it.