Chaosmancer
Legend
One thing I absolutely think would help is getting back to basics and looking at the environment.
True Fact! There is no roll for climbing a normal climbable surface. The rules state that climbing rolls can be made in extreme conditions. So, let's say the rogue/fighter wants to run into an alley and free-hand climb a three story house... Well, they can climb at half movement speed, and as long as there is no time limit, they can just do that. It would take them six seconds to clamber up that building if they dashed.
True Fact! Baseline high Jump rules allow a character with a 16 strength to jump and their feet clear a six foot height. A fighter/rogue with a high strength (or using the thief dex abilities) can casually jump over the head of most humanoids. Additionally, a 16 strength fighter can reach a ledge that is (on average) 14.745 ft above them. This means that they can trivially, without rolling or major exertion, run up to a two story house, jump, grab the edge of a window, and pull themselves up it.
These are feats of level 1 characters. A level 3 Rogue Thief should be able to, in a single span of six seconds, run into an alley, jump up and grab a second story window, kick off that to land on a third story balcony across the alley, then proceed to climb up the ivy on the side of the building to a height of approximately the 7th story of the building.
There are two things that should be added to this.
1) Let Fighter/Rogues add their proficiency to their jumps and adjust long-jump distances as well as fix the weirdness of its interaction with movement speed (you shouldn't only jump 5ft instead of the 30 you should clear, just because you ran up first). I like the idea of calculating sets of 5 ft based off their bonuses (so a fighter with a +4 strength and +3 prof jumps 35 ft) and leaving non-martials with the strength score method.
2) Let Martial Characters destroy the environment more. Right now, a 20th level fighter with a normal warhammer is potentially destroying a stone wall in three to four swings... the exact same that a 1st level fighter might accomplish. And that is even if the DM allows it, and that is even if the players think of it. A DM might allow an Ogre to charge through a wooden wall in a dramatic flair to attack the players, but they almost never allow the players to bust through walls or destroy floors or ceilings in the same manner.
How many fighter/rogues have been allowed to stab an enemy through a wooden wall? Or pull the classic of reaching through a wall to grapple an enemy? Wooden walls and doors should not make you safe from a mid-to-high level fighter. Hiding inside a wagon shouldn't make you safe from the rogue shooting you through the wagon's walls. These people live in a world that is destructible, let them feel like they are capable of shattering wood and cracking stone with ease.
And, after you implement such rules REMIND the players. Your rogue isn't used to thinking of the fact that they can jump OVER the knight's head to escape, your fighter isn't used to seeing a barred wooden door and realizing it isn't actually an obstacle that can stop them. And once you have players who are used to thinking in this way, then you are going to see a change in how those classes feel to those players.
True Fact! There is no roll for climbing a normal climbable surface. The rules state that climbing rolls can be made in extreme conditions. So, let's say the rogue/fighter wants to run into an alley and free-hand climb a three story house... Well, they can climb at half movement speed, and as long as there is no time limit, they can just do that. It would take them six seconds to clamber up that building if they dashed.
True Fact! Baseline high Jump rules allow a character with a 16 strength to jump and their feet clear a six foot height. A fighter/rogue with a high strength (or using the thief dex abilities) can casually jump over the head of most humanoids. Additionally, a 16 strength fighter can reach a ledge that is (on average) 14.745 ft above them. This means that they can trivially, without rolling or major exertion, run up to a two story house, jump, grab the edge of a window, and pull themselves up it.
These are feats of level 1 characters. A level 3 Rogue Thief should be able to, in a single span of six seconds, run into an alley, jump up and grab a second story window, kick off that to land on a third story balcony across the alley, then proceed to climb up the ivy on the side of the building to a height of approximately the 7th story of the building.
There are two things that should be added to this.
1) Let Fighter/Rogues add their proficiency to their jumps and adjust long-jump distances as well as fix the weirdness of its interaction with movement speed (you shouldn't only jump 5ft instead of the 30 you should clear, just because you ran up first). I like the idea of calculating sets of 5 ft based off their bonuses (so a fighter with a +4 strength and +3 prof jumps 35 ft) and leaving non-martials with the strength score method.
2) Let Martial Characters destroy the environment more. Right now, a 20th level fighter with a normal warhammer is potentially destroying a stone wall in three to four swings... the exact same that a 1st level fighter might accomplish. And that is even if the DM allows it, and that is even if the players think of it. A DM might allow an Ogre to charge through a wooden wall in a dramatic flair to attack the players, but they almost never allow the players to bust through walls or destroy floors or ceilings in the same manner.
How many fighter/rogues have been allowed to stab an enemy through a wooden wall? Or pull the classic of reaching through a wall to grapple an enemy? Wooden walls and doors should not make you safe from a mid-to-high level fighter. Hiding inside a wagon shouldn't make you safe from the rogue shooting you through the wagon's walls. These people live in a world that is destructible, let them feel like they are capable of shattering wood and cracking stone with ease.
And, after you implement such rules REMIND the players. Your rogue isn't used to thinking of the fact that they can jump OVER the knight's head to escape, your fighter isn't used to seeing a barred wooden door and realizing it isn't actually an obstacle that can stop them. And once you have players who are used to thinking in this way, then you are going to see a change in how those classes feel to those players.
