D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

if the setting itself is extraordinary, then the fighter or rogue who are in it, when they themselves do extraordinary things, like punching through steel plate or dodging all the damage of a fireball without moving out the radius, are merely ordinary in the setting, and don't need magic or supernatural abilities to do so.

Yes and no. If the setting is extraordinary that means all things in it could be extraordinary. Yes, with the frame of the setting it is "ordinary" but in the frame of the viewer/reader/player they are extraordinary. The rules are made for the player from the frame of the ordinary. Those rules can be applied to an extraordinary setting, but they don't have to be

 

[Micah Sweet]

please check you aren't applying your own personal opinions on 'what is required' to everyone else

Fair enough. IMO, they do from the perspective of the players, which is what I've been talking about this whole time.

That you for the correction.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I disagree with your assessment. Though they are not exact, they are pretty close.

For me: a ghost is magical / supernatural / extraordinary. An owlbear is a little iffy, but I think a D&D dragon is: magical / supernatural / extraordinary

Do you believe that the three words are directly synonymous?

If so, yeah, that's likely a large part of the problem in this discussion (in that folks disagree on these being synonymous)

If not, what do you think the differences are (because both the creatures you tagged, you tagged as all three)?

 

[dave2008]

The caveat is if they can lift the boulder because they are level 10 or if it is a base rule.

I don't understand, what are you trying to say?

IMO, "lvl 10" (and I am the one who said that) is a red herring. The point things change is whatever we want it to be. At what point do you want it?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok..I will amend a couple things from the previous post.

They might not know the definition of the word fantasy through no fault of their own. Good news. That is in the dictionary and can be provided.

They, somehow, might not know that D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game. I think that's already pretty clear from everything down from the cover of the book through to the end of the introduction. Nothing more should need to be established there other than that players should look at the stuff.

If, after receiving the definition for the word fantasy and the knowledge that D&D is a fantasy RPG, they insist upon using real world expectations to guide what "should" be possible in the game mechanics..

..then that is acting in defiance to what the genre and the game says about themselves.

Edit: if I go to the pool and someone hands me a pool toy, it's my fault if I insist they spray it with a hose before I can use it in the pool (or else it wouldn't be wet)

Fantasy does not have to mean, "no restrictions, do what you want". It can mean that, but assuming it must and that people who disagree are ignorant is insulting.

 

[dave2008]

Do you believe that the three words are directly synonymous?

No

If so, yeah, that's likely a large part of the problem in this discussion (in that folks disagree on these being synonymous)

If not, what do you think the differences are (because bot the creatures you tagged, you tagged as all three)?

I don't think they are synonymous, but the differences are, IMO, to minor or specific to matter in the context of this discussion. The difference is semantics, not substantive to the discussion.

A ghost is not "real" IMO. Therefore if there is a ghost is: magical/extraordinary/supernatural. Now, in the game context one could clearly each of those terms precisely to clarify those distinctions, and I would / will if I design my own D&D hack. But there is not game definition for those terms (in 4e/5e at least - can't remember earlier) for us to provide clear guidance or distinction.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do you believe that the three words are directly synonymous?

If so, yeah, that's likely a large part of the problem in this discussion (in that folks disagree on these being synonymous)

If not, what do you think the differences are (because both the creatures you tagged, you tagged as all three)?

The only difference between them to my mind is that anything having to do with spell effects is subject to the rules for dispelling and antimagic. This is why I separated "magical" from "supernatural or extraordinary", and I'm fine with either of the latter terms. All three allow for effects that go beyond reality as we in the real world understand it, and that's the perspective I care about.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't understand, what are you trying to say?

IMO, "lvl 10" (and I am the one who said that) is a red herring. The point things change is whatever we want it to be. At what point do you want it?

If everybody in the world can do it it's ordinary.
If everybody in the world has potential to do it by simply training it it's extraordinary.
If it requires some outside supernatural force to enable someone to be able to do it while breaking the base laws of the world, it supernatural.

 

[dave2008]

It's a fantasy setting. The definition of fantasy specifically calls out things that are unrealistic or improbable.

Fantastic stuff happens there..Why would anyone expect otherwise?

Because game rules are not just for fantasy settings. Also fantasy settings are not all the same.

Our D&D setting is low magic and basically adheres to IRL physics and assumptions. Am I playing the game bad, wrong, no fun?

 

[Tonguez]

It doesn't, but he is. Beowulf rips of Grendel's arm (who is giant IIRC). It takes about 2000lbs of force to rip an average humans arm off. The WR for deadlift is just over 1000lbs. That is superhuman strength.

I find odd/interesting in this whole discussion is that I think it lessons the story if we think Beowulf is not supernaturally strong.

It was clear with the Greeks, almost all, if not all, the heroes were had some divine blood that gave them their extraordinary strength. The Greeks knew their heroes were beyond mortal bounds.

Grendel is described as a eoten (ettin) which is probaby cognate to jotun
The issue though is DnD sets Str 20 in the range of normal - a troll has Str 18