D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Minigiant]

They are not called supernatural, but in fact they are. People in comics and anime do things that are beyond the scope of reality. For example, a common idea in anime and mange is that a warrior can move so fast they create an after image. That is not reality, it is fantasy (aka supernatural - or at least how I am using supernatural in this context).

Hawkeye and Lady Shiva is not supernatural but would be over level 10.

The issue is the rules don't allow for the size of bonuses and number of fighting styles and feats they would have.

It's a game limitations to make the game simple.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The same attitude that insists high level martials need to be magical is the reason why normal fantasy animals like griffins and owlbears aren't allowed to just be animals in the fantasy world and instead have to be monstrosities or gibbledigibbets or whatever other BS to ensure the setting is just Earth with a thin coat of magic instead of a Fantasy World.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Hawkeye and Lady Shiva is not supernatural but would be over level 10.

The issue is the rules don't allow for the size of bonuses and number of fighting styles and feats they would have.

It's a game limitations to make the game simple.

Martials should have higher proficiency bonus and higher stat caps. Unifying everything was a mistake.

 

[dave2008]

Hawkeye and Lady Shiva is not supernatural but would be over level 10.

The issue is the rules don't allow for the size of bonuses and number of fighting styles and feats they would have.

It's a game limitations to make the game simple.

I can barely speak to hawkeye and I have no idea about lady Shiva so I can't really say you are wrong or right. Regardless, that is not really my point. As I noted I am not talking about any edition of D&D, just what I would like it to look like. So you could do that in 10 levels if that game was made to be that way.

However, though I don't really know Hawkeye's skillset, archer comic characters often are portrayed as doing things that are not realistically possible. So in my mind he likely does stray into supernatural territory.

 

[dave2008]

Like, maybe they can not level their town guard up if they want to fulfill some kind of impotence fantasy. I don't know, I just know the existing martials are underpowered in terms of heroic fantasy compared to casters. Some people really want that BMX bandit feel, but I don't think letting them hold whole classes hostage is fair.

I was never talking about an existing game.

 

[nevin]

I agree.

Even going back to OD&D, a high level fighter (say 9th level) could reasonably expect to take on a pack of wolves or multiple bears singlehandedly in melee combat and kill them all (assuming they didn't flee), without any explicit magical aid. That's not something a person could realistically do. As such, IMO, high level characters have always been implicitly superhuman (magical), even martials.

I would love to see martials become more explicitly magical as they advance in tier. I think that this would go a long way to narrowing the gap between casters and martials. There are already quite a number of sub-classes in 5e that attempt this, but I would like to see them go further with those ideas.

Od&D monsters are generally less powerful than modern D&D monsters. an adult white dragon is about a 9th level encounter. A 9th level fighter should be able to kill a stone giant singlehandedly. This power level of a 9th level character has been baked in since the beginning. Now in early versions of D&D magic weapons were more important at higher levels as some creature's required magic weapons to damage them. But still not much different than what was described by the OP.

 

[Yaarel]

Excellent argument for the game capping out around 9 - 12.

Incidentally, we know that the vast majority of games never get beyond this point.

The superhuman feel of the high tiers is an argument for a campaign setting that features gritty low tiers to cap out before 9 thru 12.

It also suggests the default setting that Players Handbook gently implies might intentionally make the higher tiers rarer.

Tier: Rarity
• Levels 1 thru 4: Common
• Levels 5 thru 8: Uncommon
• Levels 9 thru 12: Rare
• Levels 13 thru 16: Very Rare
• Levels 17 thru 20: Unique Individuals

Thus the Common folk define the medievalesque feel of the setting. Superhuman beings exist, but are so Rare, Commons rarely encounter them, and they are too few to define the overall fell of the setting.

Most leaders of nations will be Uncommon, levels 5 thru 8.

The superheroes would be Rare and rarer.

 

[Yaarel]

I’d suggest that means stats like strength are mostly grounded in the real world.

For stats they don’t. A little beyond this +4 vs +5.

For hp they roughly double in durability from level 10 to 20 (possibly a bit more if place asi into con).

Even full casters only get 5 more spell slots from level 10-20, compared to their 15 they had prior.

I don’t think capabilities increase at nearly the rate suggested.

I basically agree.

The main difference between low tier and high tier is, the high tier gains access to spells that are game changers: Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, Wish, and so on. They change whether a combat can happen or not, can autowin a combat, and can make the "realistic" constraints of a setting irrelevant, such as teleport replacing ship voyages.

What magic grants that Fighter and Rogue often lack is narrative control.

 

[Minigiant]

I can barely speak to hawkeye and I have no idea about lady Shiva so I can't really say you are wrong or right. Regardless, that is not really my point. As I noted I am not talking about any edition of D&D, just what I would like it to look like. So you could do that in 10 levels if that game was made to be that way.

However, though I don't really know Hawkeye's skillset, archer comic characters often are portrayed as doing things that are not realistically possible. So in my mind he likely does stray into supernatural territory.

But Hawkeye isn't supernatural. He's just very good.

The issue is D&D numbers and feats quantity don't go that high within 20 levels

 

[dave2008]

But Hawkeye isn't supernatural. He's just very good.

Again, I can't speak to Hawkeye specifically. However, many mundane comic book heroes do things that are not called "magic" or "supernatural," but go beyond what is realistic possible by being "very good" at something.

An example: jumping through the air (usually horizontally) while shooting 3 arrows simultaneously at three different targets. Something like that is often attributed to comic book archer heroes. That is beyond being "very good." That is supernatural talent (for how I am using the term supernatural).

The issue is D&D numbers and feats quantity don't go that high within 20 levels

Maybe, but I wasn't talking about what D&D is or has been, but what I would like to see. Also, this is a different argument than what I am talking about - see above.