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D&D 5E The Magical Martial

Chaosmancer

Legend
And rolling a charisma check with a 10 Charisma and no proficiency is perfectly fine too. A 10 Charisma with proficiency is not considered "good" at the social pillar though. Similarly your character is not good at the combat pillar.

To take this further, the guy making a Charisma check with a 10 is more likely to have a bigger impact on a social encounter than someone doing 3 DPR is going to have on a fight at 3rd level. A 10 Charisma with no proficiency is closer to the best possible high Charisma build than Ray of Frost is to the best possible DPR build.

What is the equivalent to out-ranging and slowing your opponent in a charisma check?

Rolling with a 40% of success on a single roll challenge is equivalent to anything I could do with Ray of Frost in a fight? Gibbering Mouther, CR 2, speed of 10 fight, low AC. Ray of Frost reduces their speed by... 10 ft. That single cantrip turns that from a fight into target practice.

You are only looking at the narrowest possible interpretation, and refusing anything else.

Yes, just like those fighters could be good if they do not insist on investing in strength. That is the whole point.

Ah yes, just like Clerics and Warlocks could be so much better if they did not insist on investing in Wisdom and Charisma respectively, right?

A front line fighter is not going to take as much damage as a Wizard with no armor, no defensive spells and a 10 dexterity. Armor class matters a lot in terms of damage taken.

Positioning matters a whole lot more. Ranged characters are often not even targeted by attacks, compared to melee characters.

I have played numerous front line fighters with a 12 or below Constitution, I have played them at all kinds of levels, I have played them all the way to 20th level. I have only ever played one fighter with a 14 Constitution on point buy, and never any higher than that. I have never had a fighter die in 5E. I have had other classes, including a Wizard die.

For example if an enemy has a +4 attack bonus and the front line fighter has a 18 (mediocre for a front liner) and the Wizard a 10, the Wizard will take 2.5 times more damage per time he is attacked. That is without even dodging. The fighter will presumably be attacked more, but not that much more.

And there is your assumption. First, 18 is the best possible for them until well-beyond level 3. Secondly, per time attacked is the key and thirdly... you just decide to assume that the wizard will be targeted almost as often. For no other reason than it supports your argument.

The moment you cast a spell yes. They will even take AOOs to do this if needed.



You are in no armor and you are casting spells and concentrating fire is the right tac

And here it is. "Yes, of course your wizard isn't going to do as well. The moment you cast a single spell you are such a massive threat that every single enemy on the entire battlefield will immediately rush towards you, taking free attacks from the fighters and rogues, all to kill you as soon as possible."

With that as you position... remind me again why spellcasters aren't just as, if not more powerful than martials in combat? I don't tend to suicide rush weak, ineffectual targets in a combat.

Frankly, do we even need to discuss further? This just PROVES the point, so much more effectively than anything I could say.
RAW no you can't. Making a skill check is an action.

Using passive nature you may know what it is.

What about making a skill check requires me to be actively looking at the flower? If someone says a name, and I roll to see if I know the name, does RAW state I need to be actively looking at the name written out on paper to make the check?

Rules Lawyering against the Wizard I will point out .... but RAW none the less.

There is a reason the eyesight on Find Familiar only lasts a turn unless you are a Warlock with an invocation and it is explicitly to prevent this.

Also as you pointed out you don't need a check to do something simple, but if it is there is a plant over by door, exampling a plant to see if you knew what it was would require an action concentrating on it, not something you just notice just by walking by. TBH if you were looking at it through an Arcane Eye where you could do the check I still might pose disadvantage because you can't touch it, smell it or taste it as you might otherwise do on such a check, unless there was a specific visual cue that would give it away.

Man, you should tell all those people with field guides on plants and animals how it is nearly impossible to identify something from memory, and really really hard if you can't touch or taste it. I mean, they only have pictures in a book, and you might not even have the book with you when you see the thing! Utterly useless to anyone, right?

Yes I think he would slaughter the goblins with little problem ... even with a 10 constitution.

You are forgetting about second wind and action surge.

And you are trying to hit an AC 17 with disadvantage. Good thing for your fighter someone might cast a spell so that every single enemy ignores him until the real threats are dealt with.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
...yup, pretty much. None of that stuff says that humans without specific superhuman power sources should still routinely perform superhuman actions without further explanation. The class descriptions of fighter and rogue are inconsistent with your theory.

So, it was a good enough explanation for you before, and it isn't now. What was that you were saying about valuing consistency?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Yes, Ogres and Trolls are very strong, and their average Strength given in their stat block of 19 and 18 is extremely impressive. The Ogre, due to its size as well as Strength 19, can lift 1,140 lbs at a maximum (barring any sort of ability check to exceed their limits). Although this is possible for the average Ogre, it is also well within the capabilities of humans.

View attachment 361550
In fact, the 1,210 lbs exceeds what a human can do with a STR 20.

However, I think you'll find an Ogre or Troll cannot burst through a stone wall... A stone wall has AC 17 and is (at least) a Large resilient object with about 27 hit points. Neither has anything like Athletics to help with a Strength check, so all they have is a +4 to the roll if you want to do a check instead of "attacks and damage".


Huh? I wonder how.... I mean, I've seen monster who have the Siege Monster trait do such things, but that's it.

What part of lifting covers ripping and tearing? You've never once had a DM tell you how an ogre or troll ripped a man in half?

And again, I'm aware they have no special rules that allow it. But I have seen Ogres smash through walls, and no one once went "well wait, actually, that wall should have an AC of 17 and 27 hp, and..." no. The players go "AH! AN OGRE!" and deal with the threat.

And yet, if a PC with the same strength attempted the same feat.... suddenly it is unrealistic?

Why not have some consistency? Why not allow high strength PCs to do the things high strength Monsters can do?

I'd love to meet a single player IRL who "wants spellcasters to be superior"... I've never, in any edition, met such a player. Then again, I've yet to met a single player IRL who's complained the feel their martials is being overshadowed by any casters. The whole argument seems strange to me.

Well, you quoted one. Might be hard to tell since every post ECMO3 makes is massive and you skimmed them, but they have consistently said that they want spellcasters to be more powerful than martials.
 

ezo

I cast invisibility
While I can't wait for @Micah Sweet's response...
Who says they aren't capable of them? Can you quote me a rule in the PHB or DMG that says that a fighter cannot roll athletics to break through a stone wall?
Well... "Athletics" is used for difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming.

We also know it is used for grappling, of course.

However, it isn't used for Strength checks to break things, that is just Strength. :)

Or, is it that they are not capable... because you say they are not capable?

I mean, super-strength is, well, supernatural. Ogre Strength is literally a magical item. And it is a 19. Perfectly achievable.
But... it isn't super-human, as humans IRL can lift as much as a large creature with 19 STR. So, not super-strength or supernatural at all.

What is magic about Gauntlets of Ogre Power is the fact they can take the wearer from any lower Strength to a 19.

What part of lifting covers ripping and tearing? You've never once had a DM tell you how an ogre or troll ripped a man in half?
Um... none?

And no, never once. A frost giant once, though.

But I have seen Ogres smash through walls, and no one once went "well wait, actually, that wall should have an AC of 17 and 27 hp, and..." no. The players go "AH! AN OGRE!" and deal with the threat.
Oh, so, just DM narrative and fiat then? I love it when the rules for PCs don't apply to the rules for other creatures in a game world. :rolleyes:

And yet, if a PC with the same strength attempted the same feat.... suddenly it is unrealistic?
A PC with the same strength is not a large creature, though, are they? Now, you want to throw in some magical feature which also allow the PC to "become a large creature", then sure... but then we do have magic involved.

Why not have some consistency? Why not allow high strength PCs to do the things high strength Monsters can do?
Because PCs are not monsters (hopefully!)? There are a lot of things involved besides simply Strength. Size being a key one in this case.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
What part of lifting covers ripping and tearing? You've never once had a DM tell you how an ogre or troll ripped a man in half?

And again, I'm aware they have no special rules that allow it. But I have seen Ogres smash through walls, and no one once went "well wait, actually, that wall should have an AC of 17 and 27 hp, and..." no. The players go "AH! AN OGRE!" and deal with the threat.

And yet, if a PC with the same strength attempted the same feat.... suddenly it is unrealistic?

Why not have some consistency? Why not allow high strength PCs to do the things high strength Monsters can do?



Well, you quoted one. Might be hard to tell since every post ECMO3 makes is massive and you skimmed them, but they have consistently said that they want spellcasters to be more powerful than martials.
I'm with @ezo on this one. This is the sort of thing where the number system for stats just breaks down due to the engine's simplicity. I prefer to apply common sense in these situations, and a human being is simply not equipped to break through stone walls without supernatural aid. The fact that larger creatures do have that ability with the same stat number has to be explained some other way, likely due to size. Quite frankly I'd rather such being simply had a higher strength if you wanted them doing that sort of thing. In any case, the numbers alone are nonsensical in situations like this.
 

ezo

I cast invisibility
Right, when you consider an Ogre is Large size and typically weighs about 1,000 lbs, such a creature (on average) being able to 1,140 lbs is fairly reasonable.

Another issue with regulating something like breaking through a stone wall when objects have established AC/HP values for being damaged means you have to adjudicate the DC, which in 5E is fairly subjective. Would breaking through said wall be DC 15, 18, 20, or higher? Would the Ogre's +4 modifier be enough? Or is the instance in such a narrative just luck?

Or, if the Ogre used its club to smash through the wall did it roll a crit, dealing sufficient damage (27 hp) to demolish the wall (about a 1 in 6 change to roll high enough even with critial damage)?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
While I can't wait for @Micah Sweet's response...

Well... "Athletics" is used for difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming.

We also know it is used for grappling, of course.

However, it isn't used for Strength checks to break things, that is just Strength. :)

Okay, pendantry. Cool. So I can roll strength for that, since breaking things is covered under "other strength rolls"?

But... it isn't super-human, as humans IRL can lift as much as a large creature with 19 STR. So, not super-strength or supernatural at all.

What is magic about Gauntlets of Ogre Power is the fact they can take the wearer from any lower Strength to a 19.

So, if Ogres can do it, then humans can do it, and it isn't even super-strength or supernatural? Great! Then let's stop pretending fighter's can't bend steel with their bare hands or shatter rocks.

Um... none?

And no, never once. A frost giant once, though.

Weird, one of the most common things I've seen from them in cinematic scenes.

Oh, so, just DM narrative and fiat then? I love it when the rules for PCs don't apply to the rules for other creatures in a game world. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'd love to have rules for it. Something that could be used for monsters and PCs. Instead, I'm busying dealing with people demanding to know why I think my Fighter in a fantasy world could possibly be capable of things people in the real-world aren't.

A PC with the same strength is not a large creature, though, are they? Now, you want to throw in some magical feature which also allow the PC to "become a large creature", then sure... but then we do have magic involved.

Being a large creature does not increase your ability to deal damage or destroy items, does it? If I need to destroy a wooden wall, nothing about the creature's size is calculated into those rules, are they?

Because PCs are not monsters (hopefully!)? There are a lot of things involved besides simply Strength. Size being a key one in this case.

So... the rules for monsters in the game world don't apply to PCs?
 


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