D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

For my part..

"because of (insert feature here)"

..would go on both sides of the comparison (apples to apples and all that).

My only interest in "humanity" here is that I do not think that it should be a relevant factor for limiting class abilities.

I agree with that

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Micah at least has repeatedly stated that such training needs to be called out as supernatural, because human training can not reach those limits. Or it needs to be stated that humans (and only humans) are supernatural beings that are not like earth humans.

Of course, he also wants this written into the class description, PHB, or other sources before we can begin allowing any abilities.

Seems to me you wants. But let them say in their own words. But from what I hear they’re not trying to limit anything. They’re just trying to put a name to it. It could be the same game that you play that they play it just has a name to it. No big deal get over it. You don’t like it fine he doesn’t like the way you’ve got it fine. It’s just not a big deal. It’s the same game

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yep, that is my preference (though not a requirement).

Interesting, that (the bold part) has never been my point or the point that I have seen anyone make (but I dropped out for a good portion of the discussion). I am fine with gaining supernatural strength just through training in a fantasy world. My point, and I think @Micah Sweet 's point has never been about in fictional reality of the game world, but game jargon for the players (not the characters). It would simply be an acknowledgement that in this setting characters surpass what is physically possible in our world/reality. It could be one line of text in the book and be done.

Seems to be a lot of push back against adding that line though...

 

[Micah Sweet]

But here is the rub.

How much do we need to call out?

I'm going to go back to One Piece. There is a weird thing that people have noticed about the series. Some people, inexplicably, are BIG.
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There... is no real explanation for this. No real pattern. Sure, there are giants in the series, but none of these characters ever even hint at having Giant blood or being related to giants. They are just... huge people.

And, sure, there are people who investigate, who come up with theories, because there are massive mysteries in the One Piece world and everything seems to be done with purpose and intent... But most of us just accept that these people were just born big. And that if they get old, they will shrink small. Hyogoro the Flower was a massive dude in his youth, shrank down to three feet tall in his old age, then in the final battle flexed and grew to eight feet tall.


And... did Oda NEED to explain any of it? Does the fantasy world break down if we have super tall humans? OR humans who can change their size drastically? I don't think so.

And this is where I come at this from in terms of high level characters performing incredible feats... It kind of doesn't need an explicit explanation that these things are only possible because of [X]. First of all, explicitly making [X] something means it starts cutting out other concepts. We can't have fighters shattering stone because of their fighting spirit if we declare that they do so because they all learn the Iron Bones technique and have reinforced their muscles and skin with magic. I like being able to match the "power source" to the specific character. But also... as long as it isn't a spell, then it doesn't matter. The only thing it is doing is telling people their dragon-slaying, demi-god fighting human fighter isn't like a US Marine and is something more impressive. We... kind of know that. It is a fantasy game, and we are playing fantasy heroes, and even if we are playing human fighters... it seems we kind of accept that they can do some crazy fantasy feats. Without having to define them as "this is a magical training technique" or "this is because of soul refinement" or whatever other explanation we could possibly come up with.

Ok, a friend of mine finally explained to me what the heck One Piece is. My take-away is that it is a rather silly story that doesn't take itself at all seriously where many characters have ridiculous superpowers that basically runs on "Rule of Cool". Is that what you've been wanting this whole time? That style would and has driven me nuts; I actually kind of hate it.

This actually makes me feel a lot better. Now I understand why you, @Gammadoodler , and @CreamCloud0 have been making the arguments you have. You are actively seeking a style of play (at least in this aspect of the game) for D&D that I would only engage in under some form of duress, or if I were doing a favor for someone.

Ok, this makes sense. There's really no middle ground here. Sorry I was fighting you all on this. There's really no reason to.

 

[Micah Sweet]

1e and 5e's don't share the same basis of reality and everything in between.

5e has Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Ki energy flowing in or around every PC.

Which of those energies flows around fighters and rogues?

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

So you agree that it is magical to do those things? Great we are basically on the same page.

That depends on what your intent is with arguing that it is magic.

I am fine calling whatever magic, if magic is used as to label something that isn't realistic. I am willing to say that an exceptional ability to jump is "magical".

But if your intent with trying to make me argue that it is magical because the effect is, within the context of the RPG itself, magical, then I will disagree.

 

[Minigiant]

Which of those energies flows around fighters and rogues?

All

 

[dave2008]

Micah at least has repeatedly stated that such training needs to be called out as supernatural, because human training can not reach those limits. Or it needs to be stated that humans (and only humans) are supernatural beings that are not like earth humans.

Of course, he also wants this written into the class description, PHB, or other sources before we can begin allowing any abilities.

I don't think that is what they are saying, but will let them answer for themselves.. Not my place to speak for them.

 

[dave2008]

Actually, the confusion comes because the Designers were making a single, slim design decision, based in sacred cows of older editions, and meant it only to apply in that narrow field.

See, because that confusion on Paladin Divine Health vs Paladin aura does not matter for Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic states you can target a "magical effect" but it further specifies it works on spells. Counter spell only works on spells.

The entire problem comes that Anti-magic works on spells and magic items, but was worded broadly to attempt to cover other aspects. Take out Anti-magic... and nothing else cares about this distinction. Everything else only targets spells and abilities that replicate spells. It isn't that the problem comes because the designers didn't care to separate mundane, extraordinary, supernatural and magical... it is that Anti-magic was attempting to be broad... and people are insisting on these definitions to "make sense" because they have a specific vision of fantasy.

And anti-magic itself exists.... to curb the power of spellcasters and "level the field" for the weaker martial characters to shine. And so, we come full circle. We need to define martial abilities as supernatural, because anti-magic was phrased broadly, because in old editions they needed a way to turn off magic, because it was too powerful and overshadowing martials, which is still a problem, so we are seeking new abilities that people are insisting on definitions before allowing.

I really have no idea what your are trying to argue. Do at least agree there is confusion in the way the game (and here I am talking about 5e) treats magical things?

 

[dave2008]

It seems like you are arguing that fantasy settings should diverge from reality.

Which is also what we are saying. I'm not sure what the disagreement is?

Yes I agree. The disagreement seems to be twofold (but I am not really sure why people are getting so worked up about it). Different people may not share both this concerns.

1. I would prefer the game to have clear game jargon for various different magical or supernatural elements. So rules interactions are clearly understood. Like anti-magic works on magic, but not supernatural things (as an example). What this means for setting could be different from setting to setting.
2. I have had several posts suggest that it is not a fantasy game if my humans can't do amazing unreal physical things (things people can not do in real life). I don't wish to gatekeep. I want to be able to play mundane characters and fantastic characters (and understand the difference) in the same rules (doesn't even have to be the same setting - it is all about clear rules for me).

That is basically what I am asking for, not sure why that is such a no go for some people.