The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Firevalkyrie]

Exactly.

In the Hero example (which is a good example to use), their deflection of arrows in that shot totally blows away all thought that what they're doing is anything but magical; in an anti-magic field, they shouldn't be doing any of that. On the other hand, let's take another example -- a hero being thrown through a plate glass window without being cut to ribbons -- I could believe it a lot more readily happening in an anti-magic field.

That's because you've been trained by the visual language of Western film to accept it. In reality, I've seen a friend put his hand through a plate-glass window (not even his whole body) and the resulting injury caused profuse bleeding and required an immediate trip to the emergency room, dozens of stitches, weeks of recovery and a scar that his wife (then - 10 years ago - his girlfriend) still makes fun of. Plate glass shatters in jagged pieces that can easily slice through flesh and bone (my friend was lucky he didn't lose the arm, and even luckier that the window didn't cut any tendons or ligaments - that would have stretched his recovery time from weeks to months). Crashing through a plate-glass window and walking away with Hero Wounds only is pretty damn magical.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You can't expect 20th level D&D characters to be constrained by the same limits as JoeBob the Town Guardsman in terms of physical capabilities, right?

Sure I can. In my favorite version of D&D, no PC, no matter how high level, can have an ability score exceeding 18. Just like NPCs.
The PCs might be more skilled, but they're still fundamentally human.

 

[Henry]

That's because you've been trained by the visual language of Western film to accept it. In reality, I've seen a friend put his hand through a plate-glass window (not even his whole body) and the resulting injury caused profuse bleeding and required an immediate trip to the emergency room...

Hence my "without being cut to ribbons" part. I've seen some pretty vicious cuts off of shattered glass myself. And yes, of course, previous film and novels help shape perception of that. But which one is more believable -- seeing someone bust plate glass without injury, or seeing someone swat away thousands of arrows with a sword? If I watched the first one it would have me saying, "damn, man, you were lucky!" whereas watching the second one would have me saying, "what ARE you?!?!!?"

Only Force-users can build lightsabers? I never got that.

If you want to graft metal to flesh, rip a hole in the space/time continuum, lay down the circuits for artificial intelligence or even blow up a planet in a single shot, you go to a tech specialist.

But the only people who know which end of the metal tube to put the coloured rock are the jedi.[/SIZE]
-- Remoray, WotC forums

 

[Kobold Avenger]

On the other hand, let's take another example -- a hero being thrown through a plate glass window without being cut to ribbons -- I could believe it a lot more readily happening in an anti-magic field.

Have you seen the Mythbusters where they address the myth of being thrown through windows? The whole walking away from that was a busted myth.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1st level Saga PCs are pretty much immune to death in SWSE. Sounds pretty over the top to me. This is fine for a space opera setting or a superhero setting, but it will be totally lame for DND. It just plain is not that type of genre.

How many times has Rambo died? How about King Arthur? How vulnerable was Achilles? How fragile was Beowulf? How unrealistic are Bilbo and Sam's exploits? How much does Conan fear death?

HEROES are immune to death, by and large, unless it directly affects the plot. That is ENTIRELY in the genre of D&D, the language of myth and legend and epic.

D&D characters are not town guardsmen and lucky gardeners. They don't survive the harsh winter by the skin of their teeth, they don't cower in front of a goblin invasion, and they stand their ground when confronted by a dragon's supernatural fear. D&D characters do not simulate Average Joes of Fantasy World #7. They are the main characters in a narrative.

Yes, it's a matter of personal taste; I don't think anyone disputes that. But I do disagree if someone insinuates they don't see any difference in magic use between, say, The Musketeer's derring-do moves versus Hero's arrow deflections.

Hero's arrow deflections are in a more mythic mode. The Musketeers are more in a, let's say, heroic mode. D&D accomplishes (or tries to accomplish) both. At 1st level, the characters might be more Muskateer. Still very capable very heroic characters, but more "prime of humanity" than "above humanity." By 10th level (maybe), we're starting to see some mythic. By 30th, we're slaying gods.

The Muskateers could never hope to slay a god.

I don't think that any D&D character will be able to accomplish Hero-style wuxia at first level, but I don't think any D&D character will be able to jump through a window unharmed or fall out of an airship and catch themselves or kill 30 goblins at 1st level. But by 10th? By 20th? ABSOLUTELY. And they'll be able to do it without wizardy mumbo jumbo.

Because 20th level D&D characters are CLEARLY more powerful than Muskateers. They will be, probably, forever, and they have been in all earlier editions. By that point, we've left the world of mortal limitations behind, but we're still not in the realm of the Weave, because everything we do we do under our own inherent mortal power.

Sure I can. In my favorite version of D&D, no PC, no matter how high level, can have an ability score exceeding 18. Just like NPCs.
The PCs might be more skilled, but they're still fundamentally human.

Well, ability scores is neither here nor there. In 3e, NPC's didn't have ability scores exceeding 10 unless they were somehow heroic themselves -- JoeBob the Town Guard had 10's across the board. So even an 18 is SUPERHUMAN. Heck, a 12 is superhuman -- that's what the racial bonuses get you. No mere mortal has a +1 ability score bonus!

More philosophically speaking, fundamental humanity isn't defined by your ability or inability to do amazing things that no other human can do. Rambo and John McLane and Indiana Jones are fundamentally human, but they're doing stuff I can't imagine any human doing. Heck, I just watched Jurassic Park and the kids in that movie survive falling down ravines, getting electrocuted, surviving for for days in the wild without food or fresh water, beating up Velociraptors......and they're freakin' PUBESCENT! You or me, in those situations, we'd die right quick.

Those are low-level D&D characters. And by the time we're hitting the double-digit levels, we're entering the territory of more superlative abilities, and thus more mythic stylings.

JoeBob can maybe survive an encounter with one goblin, if he got a head start. Low-level D&D characters can kill a half-dozen before they're starting to tire. High-level D&D characters can pretty much wipe out a village. 30th level D&D characters might do that ACCIDENTALLY, while trying to slay Maglubiyet.

It's the nature of a level-based system that it is going to get MORE and BETTER. The difference between JoeBob and Regdar is already pretty huge, and it just gets bigger (it doesn't stay in the same place).

 

[The Little Raven]

Exactly.

While that makes for good stories, it makes for poor game design when you start with the premise that certain classes become obsolete because of other classes, especially in the core rules. The fact that the wizard and cleric can upstage the fighter and rogue in their respective roles is a problem, because it penalizes players that don't want to play spellcasters. Thus, you make one set of character types have way more traction in the system than another set.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

After a certain point, because of the scale at which powers increase, it is inevitible that D&D characters exceed what is humanly possible, first to the point of just beyond it, eventually getting to a point so far beyond the max of human ability it is totally unbelievable and only comparable to superheroes or wuxia.

The only way to avoid this (with out having casters much stronger than fighters) is to stop the level scale at some point before the abilities of characters become increased to such great proportions.
Hence the creation of E6.

 

[AllisterH]

Sure I can. In my favorite version of D&D, no PC, no matter how high level, can have an ability score exceeding 18. Just like NPCs.
The PCs might be more skilled, but they're still fundamentally human.

I'm sorry, but this simply CAN NOT work when one other class is making reality sit, roll over and beg and I think for those of us who like Bo9S, this is where we are coming from.

Grabbing a PHB that's by my computer (the 2E PHB black cover), we see that a *13th* level mage gets access to things like

Teelport without Error, Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, Limited Wish etc and all those lower level spells simply become more powerful (good old fireball that used to 5d6 and a range of 60 yards NOW does 13d6 AND has a range of 140 yards). At 20th level, the wizard is not even a superhero, he's a mini-deity in his own right in that the only thing that can beat him is greater magic than his own (without magic items, a 30th level fighter in 1E through 3.x has NO chance versus even a 15th level wizard without setting up a surprise situation)

How exactly is this balanced by the non-magic user STILL doing the same damage AS they were at first level with a weapon (without magic weapons/buffs, a fighter at 13th level does the same damage per swing as 1st level)

Seriously, how can a fighter remain "believeable" yet "useful" when paired with 2 other magic users in the typical party?

 

[JohnSnow]

A first level Saga Soldier can get hit 3 or 4 times by blaster pistol fire (with Second Wind) and still be standing.

A first level Saga Soldier (Con 14) has 32 hit points.

A blaster pistol does 3d8 (avg 13.5) damage. The first hit, on average, drops him to 18 hit points. No second wind yet. The second drops him to about 5. Second Wind kicks in and bumps him back to 19. One more shot and he's at 6 hp. If he takes one more shot, he's down for the count.

Furthermore, his damage threshold is 15 (just over the average damage). So without spending a Force Point, his chance of being killed by that fourth (or maybe second) shot is at least present.

Hit points make it possible for him to survive. But they're like heroic luck. No normal person is getting shot solidly and living. Based on the esthetics of Star Wars, hit points usually represent shots that miss and exhaust some of the character's "heroic luck." Force points, OTOH, represent the ability to survive certain death.

How many blaster bolts hit 1st-level Luke Skywalker in A New Hope? Hint: it's a lot less than one quarter of the ones that are shot at him.

Oh, and Luke only starts with:

Hit Points: 26
Ref: 15 (Dex +2, Class +2, Level +1)
Fort: 14 (Con +2, Class +1, Level +1)
DT: 15 (Luke doesn't wear armor)

Liberal use of Force Points is what keeps Luke alive.

Even though it's realistic, nobody actually wants to play a character who gets shot once and dies. Do they?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Seriously, how can a fighter remain "believeable" yet "useful" when paired with 2 other magic users in the typical party?

I'm hoping Mearls can square this seeming circle.