The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Kobold Avenger]

The thing is once a martial character gets to be really high-level, epic-level perhaps they're going to be doing things in myths like what Cúchulainn, Hercules, Beowulf and Guan Yu were described as doing. Such as taking a swim in the ocean while wearing armor, killing every sea monster and fish along the way. Toppling a building with bare hands (Samson) was described as a feat that martial characters could do in Races & Classes.

At a level where wizards call down meteors to strike their enemies, a fighter armed with a warhammer should be able to hit all enemies within 10 feet and send them all flying 30 feet back and prone on the ground.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I have no clue, but if they give 1st level characters the kinds of things they've given 1st level Star Wars Saga characters, then they'll be over-the-top heroic at 1st level.
...
I couldn't stand Hero for those exact scenes. By the time they got to defending a bunch of scribes who could write really pretty calligraphy by deflecting ten thousand arrows a second from the rooftops, I had to turn it off. For me, that's just too far into "magic" territory for me. Very pretty movie visually, but it made a turn into left field and lost me totally.

You and I probably have very different visions of what fantasy gaming should look like, then. Those scenes are far more subtle in their visual depiction than the stuff in, say, Beowulf (which couldn't even have been done using real people + special effects), and I'd tend to see walloping giant sea monsters and ripping trolls' arms off as essential to D&D martial feats.

 

[BryonD]

The thing is once a martial character gets to be really high-level, epic-level perhaps they're going to be doing things in myths like what Cúchulainn, Hercules, Beowulf and Guan Yu were described as doing. Such as taking a swim in the ocean while wearing armor, killing every sea monster and fish along the way. Toppling a building with bare hands (Samson) was described as a feat that martial characters could do in Races & Classes.

The high level fighters in my 3.5 game can do this stuff. (Well, maybe just one for the Samson thing, but I don't think a party should be full of that type anyway.)

At a level where wizards call down meteors to strike their enemies, a fighter armed with a warhammer should be able to hit all enemies within 10 feet and send them all flying 30 feet back and prone on the ground.

Since this seems to obviously apply to mooks, the only requirement would be dramatic description from the DM on the flying 30 feet part.

 

[Mercule]

I couldn't stand Hero for those exact scenes. By the time they got to defending a bunch of scribes who could write really pretty calligraphy by deflecting ten thousand arrows a second from the rooftops, I had to turn it off. For me, that's just too far into "magic" territory for me. Very pretty movie visually, but it made a turn into left field and lost me totally.

I haven't seen the movie, but it doesn't sound like I'd like it much, either.

 

[The Little Raven]

Very pretty movie visually, but it made a turn into left field and lost me totally.

I find this kinda odd. You sat down to watch a Wuxia movie, then you were surprised when it started doing what Wuxia movies do?

Kinda reminds me of all those parents that took their small children to see the South Park movie, and then were surprised that an R-Rated cartoon was profane (well, except for the fact that you might not have known it was a Wuxia movie, while anyone who didn't know South Park was R-rated and brought a small child was a fool).

 

[The Little Raven]

I have no clue, but if they give 1st level characters the kinds of things they've given 1st level Star Wars Saga characters, then they'll be over-the-top heroic at 1st level.

What you call "over-the-top" heroic, I call "don't-get-killed-by-a-single-attack-by-a-one-eyed-goblin" heroic.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I couldn't stand Hero for those exact scenes. By the time they got to defending a bunch of scribes who could write really pretty calligraphy by deflecting ten thousand arrows a second from the rooftops, I had to turn it off. For me, that's just too far into "magic" territory for me. Very pretty movie visually, but it made a turn into left field and lost me totally.

A YouTube video featuring that scene is right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj368oN3Ix8

...and I'm really finding it hard to understand how what's going on there is excessively "magical" looking (other than the flying-ish way in which Jet Li and Maggie Cheung jump to the roof, which easily could have been done with a standard jump in a non-wuxia film) or beyond the expected capabilities of a Western mythic hero.

 

[KarinsDad]

What you call "over-the-top" heroic, I call "don't-get-killed-by-a-single-attack-by-a-one-eyed-goblin" heroic.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Henry is talking about non-plausible martial mega-powers at first level. Like swinging an axe and having 5 NPCs fly back 30 feet through the air and falling prone. Or healing an ally without using magic. Or forcing enemies to attack him as opposed to the Wizard with the opponents not having any sort of Will Save against it.

There is nothing wrong with first level Fighter types having special abililties.

It's when those special abilities are outside the norm of real world physics at first level where the suspend disbelief problems come in. Introduction of really amazing (i.e. outside the laws of real world physics) abillities should be very gradual and gained at much higher levels, not right away.

Sure, a 30th level Fighter jumping 15 feet up a wall is fine (at least for some of us, note: I do not even think of this as him jumping 15 feet straight up like in a Wuxia movie, instead I think of it like a Jackie Chan movie where he bounces from wall to wall up the wall, and on the last bounce, pulls himself up with one hand with his super strength at that level to stand on the wall).

But, jumping straight up 15 feet is not DND for a first level Fighter. It's unrealistic. It's not the flavor of DND.

Henry's point has nothing to do "killed by a single attack".

As for Wuxia, I do not want Wuxia in DND. That is not DND. It's Wuxia. If one wants to Fly in DND, they should have to use some form of magic.

My favorite Wuxia example was from "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon". After my friends and I went to see it, my one friend said "I didn't know that they filmed this on the moon."

It's a perfect example. Even Wuxia is getting so stupidly fantastical and nonsensical that it is getting hard to enjoy. As Henry did, I felt the same way about Hero. It gets so far out into left field (with each director trying to outshine the previous ones) that parts of the film are beyond enjoyment outside of silly parody at this point. Might as well watch a Roadrunner comic. At least people can tell that Kung Fu Hustle was a parody. Some Wuxia movies these days are a parody (intentionally or not) and people cannot tell the difference.

 

[KarinsDad]

...and I'm really finding it hard to understand how what's going on there is excessively "magical" looking (other than the flying-ish way in which Jet Li and Maggie Cheung jump to the roof, which easily could have been done with a standard jump in a non-wuxia film) or beyond the expected capabilities of a Western mythic hero.

Hard to understand? You're kidding, right?

Stopping dozens of arrows with a wave of silk over and over again does not appear magical?

Stopping about 50 arrows about to hit all over his body without even waving his sword as if they hit a force wall does not appear magical?

If your great great grandfather (who never saw the fantastical levels of film entertainment that we get to see and did not understand computer graphics) saw this, he would be stunned and think it magical looking.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Put that in context, please. Pose the question as "legendary feat of martial arts" vs. "magic" and think about how that answer might come out.

This is your great grandfather who read the Iliad, Beowulf, and perhaps ER Eddison's Worm Ouroborous?

Yeah, he'd think the special effects are "magical," but the actual deeds might simply seem "heroic."

Also, where did the "did not even wave his sword" thing come from? Are you watching the same video I am?