The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[S'mon]

Just idle thoughts. I want to follow S'mon's advice about having my epic players interacting and depending on very weak NPCs, and I thought of a method that might work. What about a monster that has scaling AC and BAB based on his opponent at the time?

Hi Fieari - I like your idea, although I was thinking more about interaction outside combat, of course. It reminds me of a similar idea in the Slaine comic strip where the Cythrons draw power from the hate & other emotions of their foe, the stronger the foe, the faster they regenerate. So lower-power Murdach could kill his Cythron much easier than higher-power Slaine.
IMC mortals used magic (eg vorpal battleaxe) or technology to even the odds when fighting deities, with realistic stats for rocket-propelled grenades and such they were a major threat to 399-hp deities.

Outside combat, in that Cyberpunk crossover game where Thrin was allied with Sledge & Dorie, his big foe was a mid-ranking Arasaka Corp exec Hiro Kinoshi, who in 3e terms would be a 4th level Expert. Hiro commanded the vast resources of Arasaka Corp but was completely noncombatant, never carried a weapon, so LG Thrin couldn't just kill him, which made for some fun roleplay. You can do the same in a fantasy setting - eg your good-aligned demigod PCs may have a political enemy who's a politician of the same city/country/empire they serve, someone with no combat ability but huge resources, a Cardinal Richelieu type. Or they may have an ally who is important but with no physical power, anything from a young king to a child prophesied to be saviour, or a prophetess with no control over her visions, a Delphic Oracle type. Give the NPC a personality, goals of their own, and a few (2-4) levels in an NPC class and they should work well.

 

[Fieari]

Yeah. I can see all those things happening... but teaching my players how to play like that could be tricky. Some of them have this idea that killing the opposition may be the best choice of what to do in any given situation, and I really want to train them out of that habit before I give them the really tremendous power (which I want to be able to do very very much). So I was thinking to get them sympathising with the "lesser people" through something they respect-- combat. So far, the only things they've ever been afraid or worried about has been stronger foes. Heck... they murdered a duke's son and covered it up. I need to get them respecting people and life in general... preferably without railroading.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon and Fieari!

Yeah. I can see all those things happening... but teaching my players how to play like that could be tricky. Some of them have this idea that killing the opposition may be the best choice of what to do in any given situation, and I really want to train them out of that habit before I give them the really tremendous power (which I want to be able to do very very much). So I was thinking to get them sympathising with the "lesser people" through something they respect-- combat. So far, the only things they've ever been afraid or worried about has been stronger foes. Heck... they murdered a duke's son and covered it up. I need to get them respecting people and life in general... preferably without railroading.

This is where the worship points system really shines, because it means the DM perpetually has the players by the cahones, while at the same time not having to crush them to worry them...only squeeze.

Another factor is pantheon responsibility (and also portfolio responsibility - although thats a bit more black and white).

eg. If you lose the respect of your pantheon you they are less likely to bail you out of Hell when you get captured by a trio of archdevils...*ahem*.

So you not only have to consider the physical repercussions of battles, but also the sociological repercussions of both your peers and your worshippers.

There have been many occasions whereby Thrin has had to circumvent the obvious (combat) to get the desired results. Or spend time maneouvering the opponent into a position where combat became an option.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

OK, here I go opening my stupid (or perhaps just irrelevant?) mouth again...

Immortals Handbook site, last entry is on 12th March about the preview with 'announcements over the course of the week', nothing since then for a month now. So, the question is: Why so quiet?

Probably because the best laid plans often go astray.

I will probably mention on the website when the preview is away for editing. Its very, very close to being finished but take that with a pinch of salt - this is me remember. Over the weekend I noticed I had made a balls up of the dragon ability scores which meant a ton of stat crunching had to be redone, which is just one amongst many comedy of errors that have dogged me. I'm not going to apologise anymore, I'm not going to speculate as to when it will be finished. When its finished, I'll be the first to let you all know. Mistakes will be learnt from and hopefully not repeated. Circumstances that have dogged progress since the beginning will be a thing of the past from the end of next week. So although things seem quagmired at the moment the future is bright.

 

[Nifelhein]

I just hope it comes in time for 4th edition.

Just joking guys... I couldn't afford it anytime now too. keep the work going, keep the ideas flowing, give us your best, whenever that may be possible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Nifelhein mate!

I just hope it comes in time for 4th edition.

He he!

Just joking guys... I couldn't afford it anytime now too. keep the work going, keep the ideas flowing, give us your best, whenever that may be possible.

I'm just going to circumvent one of the major stumbling blocks of the completion...in effect, Improved Spell Capacity. While innocent enough on the surface this dirty ******* has probably annoyed me more than any other facet of the Bestiary.

Spell lists for 133HD Cherubim with 66th-level cleric integrated spellcasting, 76 wisdom and 24 improved spell capacity feats are somewhat clunky under WotCs auspices.

So I am going to rig up a quick compromise (for the preview) and based on the response I'll see whether or not I retain it for the full Bestiary.

Essentially a rules-lite version of my magic system (without the frills of new types of magic).

Basically it takes the Improved Spell Capacity feat and changes it to a free metamagic slot (to avoid confusion with Improved Spell Capacity I may call this Metamagic Freedom).

So If I have 24 Metamagic Freedom feats, every spell I cast could be Heightened 24 times, or Empowered 12 times (x7 damage), or any combination of metamagic you want - based upon the metamagic feats you have (allowing metamagic to stack obviously).

The difference between this and I.S.C. is that you don't have to work out how many darn spells of each level above 9th you have - which is a bloody nightmare.

The trade off is that you have less total spells* (since I.S.C. gives you +1 spell and the chance for bonus spells due to very high ability scores).

However, the benefit is twofold. Firstly that every spell you have benefits from the full metamagic effect (if required) for each spell - in contrast to the I.S.C. which is limiting.

eg. Here is the current Cherubim Spell Numeration:

6/15/14/14/14/14/12/12/12/12/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2

Under the new regime that would become:

6/15/14/14/14/14/12/12/12/12

But instead of having x2 33rd-level spells, x2 32nd-level spells etc. You would have x12 33rd-level spells.

The second reason is that it doesn't make lower level spells obsolete. I mean, what deity is going to bother with 9th-level spells when they can cast 33rd-level spells. The choices become irrelevant. This way the actual 3rd-level spells you take (for instance) still mean something when you are 66th-level.

I just wasn't having any fun working out every individual levels spell-list, I'd much rather be working out favourite spells for the tactics sections.

By the way, I don't like the idea of this stacking with Improved Metamagic, just to let you know. Also, technically it would replace multispell as well. Instead of multispell you just stack two quickened spells. etc.

Any comments?

 

[poilbrun]

I'm just going to circumvent one of the major stumbling blocks of the completion...in effect, Improved Spell Capacity. While innocent enough on the surface this dirty ******* has probably annoyed me more than any other facet of the Bestiary.

Spell lists for 133HD Cherubim with 66th-level cleric integrated spellcasting, 76 wisdom and 24 improved spell capacity feats are somewhat clunky under WotCs auspices.

So I am going to rig up a quick compromise (for the preview) and based on the response I'll see whether or not I retain it for the full Bestiary.

Essentially a rules-lite version of my magic system (without the frills of new types of magic).

Basically it takes the Improved Spell Capacity feat and changes it to a free metamagic slot (to avoid confusion with Improved Spell Capacity I may call this Metamagic Freedom).

So If I have 24 Metamagic Freedom feats, every spell I cast could be Heightened 24 times, or Empowered 12 times (x7 damage), or any combination of metamagic you want - based upon the metamagic feats you have (allowing metamagic to stack obviously).

The difference between this and I.S.C. is that you don't have to work out how many darn spells of each level above 9th you have - which is a bloody nightmare.

The trade off is that you have less total spells* (since I.S.C. gives you +1 spell and the chance for bonus spells due to very high ability scores).

However, the benefit is twofold. Firstly that every spell you have benefits from the full metamagic effect (if required) for each spell - in contrast to the I.S.C. which is limiting.

eg. Here is the current Cherubim Spell Numeration:

6/15/14/14/14/14/12/12/12/12/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2

Under the new regime that would become:

6/15/14/14/14/14/12/12/12/12

But instead of having x2 33rd-level spells, x2 32nd-level spells etc. You would have x12 33rd-level spells.

The second reason is that it doesn't make lower level spells obsolete. I mean, what deity is going to bother with 9th-level spells when they can cast 33rd-level spells. The choices become irrelevant. This way the actual 3rd-level spells you take (for instance) still mean something when you are 66th-level.

I just wasn't having any fun working out every individual levels spell-list, I'd much rather be working out favourite spells for the tactics sections.

By the way, I don't like the idea of this stacking with Improved Metamagic, just to let you know. Also, technically it would replace multispell as well. Instead of multispell you just stack two quickened spells. etc.

Any comments?

Hi mate!

I hope you're keeping well, haven't talked to you for some time!

Doesn't that change make spellcasters a lot less powerful? Instead of casting 108 spells above level 9, they can cast 12 spells of level 33. Also, doesn't that leave a huge gap in spell power? Your Cherubim has 12 spells of level 9 then 12 of level 33 with nothing in between (he can of course choose not to use all the metamagic, but that is just a waste).

I'm not sure I really like this idea, that seems to move away from core A LOT.

Sorry

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mate!

Hey poilbrun matey!

I hope you're keeping well, haven't talked to you for some time!

Well funny you mention it I have been poorly for the past three or four days with a cold/flu type scenario. Nothing too bad, but just enough to niggle.

Doesn't that change make spellcasters a lot less powerful?

Not as far as I can see.

Instead of casting 108 spells above level 9, they can cast 12 spells of level 33.

Instead of having 108 spells above 9th (tapering from 10th to 33rd), now all the spells are effectively greater than 9th! 0th-level spells become 24th-level spells, 1st-level become 25th, 2nd become 26th, 3rd become 27th, 4th become 28th, 5th become 29th, 6th become 30th, 7th become 31st, 8th become 32nd and 9th become 33rd.

So you would now have 125 spells of 24th-level or higher. Whereas otherwise you only had 28 spells of 24th-level or higher.

Also, doesn't that leave a huge gap in spell power?

Not as far as I can see.

Your Cherubim has 12 spells of level 9 then 12 of level 33 with nothing in between (he can of course choose not to use all the metamagic, but that is just a waste).

The 12 9th-level spells become 12 33rd-level spells. The 12 8th-level spells become 32nd-level spells etc.

I'm not sure I really like this idea, that seems to move away from core A LOT.

I think you may have picked up on it wrong. Either that or I explained it hastily.

Sorry

What do you think now?

 

[Zoatebix]

I'd have to see how it plays out, but the concept looks really great. It's elegant, scalable, uses material people already know in a new way that suits epic and immortal -level play, and it reduces book keeping.

Preparing a huge list of spells still looks like such a pain that I wouldn't want to do it, but at least you've made it less of a pain. Figuring 125 things out is less work than figuring 233 things out. I'd still rather run a Sorceror (or maybe an alternate magic system - this is the one and only instance where I would miss the core metamagic system that AU/AE dropped in favor of better things) than a Wizard at that level just to make my life as a GM or player easier.

 

[jmucchiello]

Instead of having 108 spells above 9th (tapering from 10th to 33rd), now all the spells are effectively greater than 9th! 0th-level spells become 24th-level spells, 1st-level become 25th, 2nd become 26th, 3rd become 27th, 4th become 28th, 5th become 29th, 6th become 30th, 7th become 31st, 8th become 32nd and 9th become 33rd.

So you would now have 125 spells of 24th-level or higher. Whereas otherwise you only had 28 spells of 24th-level or higher.

I think you may have picked up on it wrong. Either that or I explained it hastily.

Are you saying that a 0-level spell with 24 level of metamagic is remotely similar to a 9th level spell? I don't care how empowered it is, ray of frost is not the spell I want to be casting at CR 66 opponents.

Also, by the rules in 3.5, you can't use the same metamagic feat on the same spell twice. This is the purpose behind +8 and +9 level metamagic feats in the EPH -- something has to make those 30th level spells.