The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

By the way I have just decided the name Automatic Metamagic Capacity might be better suited.

Since it combines 'Automatic' from Automatic Quicken/Silent/Still Spell and the 'Capacity' from Improved Spell Capacity. Which are essentially the main feats its replacing.

I also think that with the 'Automatic' stated up front might help people grasp the idea a bit quicker.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I support this alteration of the epic magic rules.

 

[Nifelhein]

I do support it too, make it all the more simple you can.

 

[Greybar]

Re: Polibrun's concerns about still wanting to use lower level spells for lower level enemies.

While I understand UK's assumption that magic items can probably fill the gap, here's something to consider that isn't wholly thought out yet.

What if the Improved/Advanced Super Spell Thingy feat allowed you to effortlessly cast spells of lower levels, maybe in combination with another feat. Let's call in "Thoughtless Casting".

Thoughtless Casting is like a +4 level metamagic that lets you cast any spell you are capable of, without memorizing it. This then combines with the free-metamagic feats such that...

Poliburn's epic Wizard has Thoughtless Casting and Advanced Capacity x10. He can thus cast a 6th level spell equivalent without losing a slot - just from sheer force of will. (6th level spell +4 for Thoughtless = 10 from capacity). Similarly, he could thoughtlessly cast a quickened second level spell (2 level + 4 quickened + 4 thoughtless).

This gives the high level wizard, cleric, or deific being a casual access to the mortal realms of spells without bothering with huge lists of memorizations.

how's that sound?

john

 

[Upper_Krust]

Appreciate the support guys!

Hey there Greybar!

Re: Polibrun's concerns about still wanting to use lower level spells for lower level enemies.

If that was his only concern then its unfounded since theres nothing to say you have to use the free metamagic even if its available.

In fact to be honest I am not exactly sure what poilbruns concerns are at this point?

Too few spells?

A 60th-level Wizard with Intelligence 60 and Improved Spell Capacity x16 (4/5 of all epic feats) will have 102 spells (0-9th) and only 56 spells (10th-25th)

An 80th-level Wizard with Intelligence 80 and Improved Spell Capacity x24 (4/5 of all epic feats) will have 124 spells (0-9th) and 124 spells (10th-33rd).

While I understand UK's assumption that magic items can probably fill the gap, here's something to consider that isn't wholly thought out yet.

Hold on there. I don't see that there is a gap. Not a valid one anyway. I only made those comments to further alleviate poilbruns fears.

There is nothing that needs to be plugged. Admittedly characters will have less spells, but the difference only reaches 50% when you have an ability score in around 80+ and about 25+ Improved Spell Capacity feats and by that time you already have over 120 spells (0-9th) anyway for goodness sake! Not to mention your top end spells are going to be stretched over 34 or so levels using the official rules.

What if the Improved/Advanced Super Spell Thingy feat allowed you to effortlessly cast spells of lower levels, maybe in combination with another feat. Let's call in "Thoughtless Casting".

Doesn't Eschew Materials combined with Silent Spell and Still Spell (and two Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats) already accomplish this?

Thoughtless Casting is like a +4 level metamagic that lets you cast any spell you are capable of, without memorizing it. This then combines with the free-metamagic feats such that...

To me this is like the Intensify Spell metamagic feat - Irrelevant in the light of Metamagic Freedom.

Thoughtless Casting would simply be a combination of Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell and two Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats.

Poliburn's epic Wizard has Thoughtless Casting and Advanced Capacity x10. He can thus cast a 6th level spell equivalent without losing a slot - just from sheer force of will. (6th level spell +4 for Thoughtless = 10 from capacity). Similarly, he could thoughtlessly cast a quickened second level spell (2 level + 4 quickened + 4 thoughtless).

This gives the high level wizard, cleric, or deific being a casual access to the mortal realms of spells without bothering with huge lists of memorizations.

how's that sound?

It sounds exactly the same thing I have been saying except that you have added the unnecessary element of Thoughtless Casting.

 

[poilbrun]

If that was his only concern then its unfounded since theres nothing to say you have to use the free metamagic even if its available.

My concern was more that in the example you had, where the wizard only had spell slots from 24th to 33rd level, you have to use up a 24th level slot to use magic missile, whether you use metamagic or not.

In fact to be honest I am not exactly sure what poilbruns concerns are at this point?

I'll wait to see the whole system for characters, because I am not totally convinced yet. However, I wholeheartedly agree that it is a lot easier for monster design.

While I care that my 60th level wizard looses lower-level spell slots, I don't care about the fact that my 60HD monster can cast a 1st-level spell without metamagic. Though I just realized that a 60th level wizard could probably fight a a monster with a CR lower than 10 in close combat without any risk.

Too few spells?

I still think that it could be an issue in some circumstances. There are times when you want to have as many spells as possible, either because you will use a lot of them, or because you cannot regain your spells. AFAIK, it has happened twice in the Forgotten Realms that a cleric could not regain spells: during the Time of Trouble, and because of the silence of Lolth. It can also happen if you travel to a plane where contact with your deity is impossible. You'd be more than happy to have a LOT of spells.

A 60th-level Wizard with Intelligence 60 and Improved Spell Capacity x16 (4/5 of all epic feats) will have 102 spells (0-9th) and only 56 spells (10th-25th)

An 80th-level Wizard with Intelligence 80 and Improved Spell Capacity x24 (4/5 of all epic feats) will have 124 spells (0-9th) and 124 spells (10th-33rd).

Is it possible to keep up at a +1 to INT every level? I don't feel like making the calculation (especially not when I'm at work with no book at hand!), but that looks like a lot. +20 is +5 at every 4 levels, probably +6 to +8 from upgrading an headband of intellect, but where can the other +7 come from, as inherent bonuses are max +5?

 

[Greybar]

Upper Krust,

I think I failed to get across one important aspect of the feel I'm looking for. Using this proposed new feat does not burn spell slots, effectively making using that spell act like a "Spell Like Power At Will". A weilder of power at this level can toss of trifling magics without any expenditure of his effort at all.

The objective is two fold:
1) Don't make the caster memorize low level spells that really don't add to the kinds of stories he is involved in. Saves PC book keeping time, so he doesn't have to write down 124 + 124 spells.
2) Make dealing with minor tasks absolutely effortless. A cleric of 75th level can stroll down the street placing the blessings of his deity (in the form of the Resistance cantrip or such) effortlessly.

Now I'm not real sure about how the mechanism for that should work, but I still like the concept. Did I make my idea more clear?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun matey!

My concern was more that in the example you had, where the wizard only had spell slots from 24th to 33rd level, you have to use up a 24th level slot to use magic missile, whether you use metamagic or not.

Well, technically there are no such things as 24th-level 'slots'. You just get 0th-9th and then add the free metamagic...if you want to.

I'll wait to see the whole system for characters, because I am not totally convinced yet.

It seems okay to me.

However, I wholeheartedly agree that it is a lot easier for monster design.

While I care that my 60th level wizard looses lower-level spell slots, I don't care about the fact that my 60HD monster can cast a 1st-level spell without metamagic. Though I just realized that a 60th level wizard could probably fight a a monster with a CR lower than 10 in close combat without any risk.

Lower than CR15* I envision.

*My system that is of course, so CR 10 monster or (approx.) 15th-level character for WotC.

I still think that it could be an issue in some circumstances. There are times when you want to have as many spells as possible, either because you will use a lot of them, or because you cannot regain your spells. AFAIK, it has happened twice in the Forgotten Realms that a cleric could not regain spells: during the Time of Trouble, and because of the silence of Lolth. It can also happen if you travel to a plane where contact with your deity is impossible. You'd be more than happy to have a LOT of spells.

Of course you would, but in both the examples you mentioned the very raison d'etre of the plot device is/was to eventually grind you down.

The number of spells you have is secondary to the situation at hand.

A 20th-level Wizard casts 20 spells less than the same level Sorceror, thats a 50% increase for the Sorceror (before we factor Ability Score modifiers anyway).

Is it possible to keep up at a +1 to INT every level? I don't feel like making the calculation (especially not when I'm at work with no book at hand!), but that looks like a lot. +20 is +5 at every 4 levels, probably +6 to +8 from upgrading an headband of intellect, but where can the other +7 come from, as inherent bonuses are max +5?

Not sure (it was just an example) although I would expect closer to a headband of epic intellect +26 at 80th-level...not to mention divine abilities and so forth.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper Krust,

Hi Greybar mate!

I think I failed to get across one important aspect of the feel I'm looking for. Using this proposed new feat does not burn spell slots, effectively making using that spell act like a "Spell Like Power At Will". A weilder of power at this level can toss of trifling magics without any expenditure of his effort at all.

Using Automatic Metamagic Capacity doesn't burn spell slots. You get to apply levels of metamagic for free.

The objective is two fold:
1) Don't make the caster memorize low level spells that really don't add to the kinds of stories he is involved in.

I prefer to make those low level spells relevant at any level (by potentially increasing their power) rather than making them obsolete - which is a pointless waste.

Saves PC book keeping time, so he doesn't have to write down 124 + 124 spells.

Under my rules you would only have the initial 124 spells (which is actually something like 60 base + 64 for high ability scores). Unless you are going to let someone cast miracle/wish at will you have to at least acknowledge the basic spells.

2) Make dealing with minor tasks absolutely effortless. A cleric of 75th level can stroll down the street placing the blessings of his deity (in the form of the Resistance cantrip or such) effortlessly.

Any 75th-level Cleric that finds themselves just strolling down the street using cantrips has way too much time on their hands...unless of course the 'street' in question was some sort of cosmic highway flanked by the molten sarcophogi of twisted elder beings whose eternal guardians needed bolstering by the clerics heightened (to 40th-level) resistance cantrips.

Now I'm not real sure about how the mechanism for that should work, but I still like the concept.

I don't see any fundamental difference between what I suggest and what you inevitably want.

Can you tell me which parts of my system are you dissatisfied with?

Did I make my idea more clear?

No. Or at least not to the extent that I can clearly see what you want - are you looking for the ability to cast (all?) spells at will, as spell-like abilities? If so thats something I deal with under divine abilities.

 

[Greybar]

That's okay, I think I'm just out of my depth here.
I'll look forward to seeing the final product so I can comment more intelligently. It sounds like you have what I'm looking for covered.

p.s. I hope even 75th level clerics get to spend some time with the faithful, even if it's a brief vaca between episodes of saving the multiverse.