The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Dyson!

Perhaps when the imprisonment spell wears off you will see this reply.

Is that fact? Is that how it's described in BoVD,

Well its described as a violation of a characters body or soul that only in a holy place can healing magic repair the damage. Or to put it simply and succinctly, an evil taint.

or is that your own interrpretation of how pathetic you think it is?

I don't think its pathetic, but clearly its less powerful.

Just like a Dragonne is less powerful than a Tarrasque, a Tarrasque is less powerful than a Xixecal, etc. Akin to the relationship between normal, vile and permanent damage.

One does not make the other redundant, they are simply different.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Baranovan matey!

The thing about vile damage is that it's as good as permanent damage inside of the encounter in which it's dealt.

Its not that scary, really. Its good for evil monsters, if thats not a contradiction. But its not appropriate for epic monsters who are essentially unliving annihilation.

Afterwards, it takes a little more effort to heal, but nothing too tough.

Exactly its an inconvenience more than a 'cross to bear'.

Permanent damage affects all fights from here on out, limiting your resources unfairly based on the idea that "you knew the risks", which doesn't placate me at all. I don't know how anyone else feels.

I like the idea of putting the fear back into epic gaming.

Remember ANYTHING is possible at epic/immortal levels. Its only a question of how high you have to go to get 'x' ability.

I think some important questions are: how much permanent damage do these things deal? what is the modifier used for the attack? what is their rough CR? If these things balance out a minimal (I'm talking a few d3s here) amount of such damage, it might not be completely over the top, but I'm betting on it being ludicrous.

Permanent damage is rated as being the equivalent of five times the power of normal damage. So either the creature will be dealing one fifth damage for the same Challenge Rating modifier or the Challenge Rating modifier for its damage will be five times greater.

Its almost silly worrying about something like that when I created a Challenge Rating/Encounter Level system SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ACCURATELY RATING EPIC/IMMORTAL PLAY!

The CR/EL system was born out of the Immortals Handbook, it wasn't simply something I was working at on the side. Did you think I would just abandon all that and start pulling challenge ratings out of a hat!?

 

[Baronovan]

Okay... everyone wants to either defend permanent damage or call me a coward... have at it. I still see a busted mechanic, 1/5th damage aside, not something I'm "afraid of", but something I think would convince me not to buy the product or use the creatures involved.

And no, S'mon, no one has obliged me to include anything I dislike, that was my point.

Frankly, U_K, I don't care how you want to phrase your philosophy on epic play, I'd rather suffer the possibility of permanently losing 1 hp/HD or even utter death if a fight ends so badly that an epic character dies rather than anyone lose x% of HP permanently, win or lose. Calling me a chicken doesn't fix that, nor does saying anything trite like "you know the risks", or "you didn't have to get into melee with it", because all that boils down to is that you'd rather minimalize my opinion than consider that the power is a bit overmuch. If you want to instill fear in epic games, this is a shoddy corner-cut to doing so. As a final note, I'm not "scared" of your ability, I'm turned off by it and dissuaded. It's something I'd expect from a poorly designed 3rd party company. I actually had held you to higher expectations. I guess you will all have to agree to disagree with me.

As a PS, I'm not at all offended at all by the "chicken" comments, as most have been accompanied by the smiley things. I do feel minimalized, though, as it seems easier to "name away" my concerns as "fear" rather than an honest balance issue... but go ahead, multiple the CR modifier from damage by 5 and we'll see if that does squat to placate the people who gets forced into armchairs over this.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Well from the movie, we can see that there wasn't that much difference between the top Jedi/Sith. So the main characters must have all been about 16-20th level.

That seems about right based on combat evidence, although I rather like the idea of a "full blown" Anakin Skywalker being about CR 40 or so, with Sidious/Yoda being around CR 30.

Anyway, I think the following conversion from SWD6 to Marvel works out fairly well:

Each D of an attribute in SWD6 = 4 points under the Marvel system (or 3 if you prefer, it's a bit of a judgment call). Ex., Yoda's 14D in control = between 56 (Am) and 42 (In) in Marvel Ranks. A lightsaber which does a base of 5D damage would = between 20 (Ex) and 15 (Gd) damage in Marvel.

F = Brawling
A = Dexterity
S = Strength
E = Stamina skill
R = The average of the character's Technical and Mechanical Attributes
I = The average between the Attribute Perception and the Force Attribute Sense
P = The average between the Attribute Perception or the Force Attribute Control

As far as force powers are concerned, simply use the SWD6 mechanic and multiply by 4 (or 3). Ex.,

Scale multipliers -- which are used to reduce D6 vehicles of varying size to the same D6 scale -- are as follows (I can explain these calculations if they don't make sense):

Speeder = Base attribute + 2D * 1.75 * Marvel multiplier (3 or 4)
Walker = Base attribute + 4D * 3 * Marvel multiplier (3 or 4)
Starfighter = Base attribute + 6D * 5 * Marvel multiplier (3 or 4)
Capital = Base attribute + 12D * 9 * Marvel multiplier (3 or 4)
Death Star = Base attribute + 24D * 33 * Marvel multiplier (3 or 4)

Thus, under this formula a heavy turbolaser from a Class II Star Destroyer would do 792 damage (roughly Class 1000) when converted to Marvel damage.

The Death Star's Superlaser would do roughly 5280 damage (Class 5000) when converted to Marvel damage (16D (Superlaser base damage) + 24D (Scaling factor) * 33 (D6 Scaling multiplier) * 4 (Marvel multiplier)).

Because characters receive no scaling adjustments, their conversion is a bit more straightforward, but I think the conversions outlined above do a fair job of accurately mirroring the level of power between the systems.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Baranovan mate!

Okay... everyone wants to either defend permanent damage or call me a coward... have at it.

Thats the spirit.

I still see a busted mechanic,

...and I value your opinion on the matter. But I just don't agree with you on this point, neither from a mechanical point of view, nor a philosophical point of view.

Mechanically I know its balanced, and philosophically I know that epic gaming has to expand in new tangents, not simply numerically, to actually have any merit.

That means that given infinite possibilities, permanent damage eventually becomes possible. The only question is how powerful is it. Once we have that worked out, we can assign it to an appropriate monster.

1/5th damage aside,

1/5th damage (or x5 CR mod for damage) I think is a very accurate rating of the ability. You disagree?

not something I'm "afraid of",

I understand that...I thought you were simply addressing the possible concerns of players.

but something I think would convince me not to buy the product or use the creatures involved.

Even though you haven't seen the (two) relevant monsters yet.
Even though the challenge ratings are accurate.
Even though I already pre-empted that it might be too powerful for some tastes and included a 'get out of jail' option.

And no, S'mon, no one has obliged me to include anything I dislike, that was my point.

Well I can tell you there are two monsters in the preview that use this ability. So thats 2 from 35.

Frankly, U_K, I don't care how you want to phrase your philosophy on epic play,

Not even a little?

I'd rather suffer the possibility of permanently losing 1 hp/HD or even utter death if a fight ends so badly that an epic character dies rather than anyone lose x% of HP permanently, win or lose.

But that doesn't make any sense as far as I can see.

According to you its okay for a 30th-level Fighter (for example) to 'permanently' lose 30 hit points from an imposed constitution loss. However its not okay for a 30th-level Fighter to permanently lose 30 hp to a permanent damage attack!?

I mean maybe I am just not seeing the wood for the trees here but by the bristling beard of Odin I simply don't see any fundamental difference!

You also go on to suggest that it would be much better for the character to suffer permanent death than lose some hit points permanently. I mean call me crazy but I just don't see the logic in that!?

Weighing up the permanent death of a character on one hand and a permanently reduced hit point total on the other is an easy decision to make.

S'mon (playing Hel): "Ha ha ha! Your days are numbered Thrin its either permanent death or the permanent loss of 500 hit points! Which is it to be fool? This'll teach you to mess with the random deity generator!"

Upper_Krust (playing Thrin): "Your reputation as the queen of of dead is justified as ever Hel. Curse that 97% roll. Decisions, decisions. I'll go with option B. That drops me to only 1000 hit points damn you woman. A pox be upon you...get your clammy hands off my hit points wench...AARRRGHH!!!...

...sometime later. Right now get Odin on the crystal ball and tell him to sell my shares in Microsoft and invest it in amulets of epic health."

Calling me a chicken doesn't fix that, nor does saying anything trite like "you know the risks", or "you didn't have to get into melee with it", because all that boils down to is that you'd rather minimalize my opinion than consider that the power is a bit overmuch.

You can sum all this up in one word. Tactics.

Is it overmuch to use Golems or Demiliches on wizards, or Remorhaz or Umbral Blots on monks just because these characters are at a disadvantage!? I don't think so. In such cases smart players adapt their tactics accordingly. Same thing here.

If you want to instill fear in epic games, this is a shoddy corner-cut to doing so.

I disagree. The potential to take away the very thing PCs hold dear...without killing them. Thats how to add elements of fear without the finality of total desruction.

Unless you have a better way of engendering fear mechanically? I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

As a final note, I'm not "scared" of your ability, I'm turned off by it and dissuaded. It's something I'd expect from a poorly designed 3rd party company. I actually had held you to higher expectations. I guess you will all have to agree to disagree with me.

I don't see how you can draw these conclusions.

As a PS, I'm not at all offended at all by the "chicken" comments, as most have been accompanied by the smiley things.

Glad to hear it dude. I can only speak for myself, but any such comments I made were intentionally light-hearted.

Though I do actually like the idea of putting 'fear' back into the minds of players.

I do feel minimalized, though, as it seems easier to "name away" my concerns as "fear" rather than an honest balance issue...

This is me remember. Balance is my middle name...of course the kids would make fun of it at school, but hey thats another story.

but go ahead, multiple the CR modifier from damage by 5 and we'll see if that does squat to placate the people who gets forced into armchairs over this.

Well if the worst comes to the worst we can always say its permanent constitution drain that can't be restored, then they'll be okay with it, won't they.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya historian mate!

Thanks for the conversion system, very interesting.

Thus, under this formula a heavy turbolaser from a Class II Star Destroyer would do 792 damage (roughly Class 1000) when converted to Marvel damage.

The Death Star's Superlaser would do roughly 5280 damage (Class 5000) when converted to Marvel damage (16D (Superlaser base damage) + 24D (Scaling factor) * 33 (D6 Scaling multiplier) * 4 (Marvel multiplier)).

You know these two are very accurately converted, especially taking my tweaking of Marvel Superhero Weaponry to a proper scaling system.

 

[Baronovan]

Hey Baranovan mate!

Hey there, U_K.

...and I value your opinion on the matter. But I just don't agree with you on this point, neither from a mechanical point of view, nor a philosophical point of view.

Mechanically I know its balanced, and philosophically I know that epic gaming has to expand in new tangents, not simply numerically, to actually have any merit.

Well, we're fit to disagree here, mate. I don't know what sky "x5" fell out of, but I don't think it's enough.

1/5th damage (or x5 CR mod for damage) I think is a very accurate rating of the ability. You disagree?

Yes. Very much so. It seems too arbitrary an ability to be measured mechanically. I know that you used your better judgment on the matter, but I'm not convinced there's any solution to a permanent damage ability.

I understand that...I thought you were simply addressing the possible concerns of players.

I am. As a DM and a player, this ability concerns me very much.

Even though you haven't seen the (two) relevant monsters yet.

Show me. I might quit complaining if I can see the hows and whys of this.

Even though the challenge ratings are accurate.

This is a matter of opinion, and gauged on an arbitrary multiplier that might not fit the bill. How much playtesting has been done on this?

Even though I already pre-empted that it might be too powerful for some tastes and included a 'get out of jail' option.

And for this we are all fortunate.

Well I can tell you there are two monsters in the preview that use this ability. So that’s 2 from 35.

Can't wait to see them.

Not even a little?

Well, maybe a little. Still, the idea that this ability can be balanced is wholly a matter of philosophy--something you and I seem to disagree on.

But that doesn't make any sense as far as I can see.

According to you its okay for a 30th-level Fighter (for example) to 'permanently' lose 30 hit points from an imposed constitution loss. However its not okay for a 30th-level Fighter to permanently lose 30 hp to a permanent damage attack!?

I mean maybe I am just not seeing the wood for the trees here but by the bristling beard of Odin I simply don't see any fundamental difference!

Well, the primary difference here is that the player would have to completely lose to suffer the effect, not merely exchange some blows before he realizes his career is about to end, win or lose.

You also go on to suggest that it would be much better for the character to suffer permanent death than lose some hit points permanently. I mean call me crazy but I just don't see the logic in that!?

Weighing up the permanent death of a character on one hand and a permanently reduced hit point total on the other is an easy decision to make.

It was a suggestion meant primarily as emphasis to my position.

Is it overmuch to use Golems or Demiliches on wizards, or Remorhaz or Umbral Blots on monks just because these characters are at a disadvantage!? I don't think so. In such cases smart players adapt their tactics accordingly. Same thing here.

Not at all, because none of these beasties cause permanent damage.

I disagree. The potential to take away the very thing PCs hold dear...without killing them. That’s how to add elements of fear without the finality of total destruction.

Unless you have a better way of engendering fear mechanically? I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

I'd rather suffer such a loss by being killed and, say, losing a point of Con even with a true res -- something so common in an epic game that the fear will be there. Epic characters do die, and they more often than not get a true res to being them back flawlessly. Remove this ability and they'll be scared, I'm sure.

I don't see how you can draw these conclusions.

I work in a huge (HUUUGE) gaming store in Orlando and have paged through some of the worst OGL texts in Creation. I've also seen real quality work. Depending on the CRs of these creatures, it's one or the other and I am leaning towards the latter right now.

Glad to hear it dude. I can only speak for myself, but any such comments I made were intentionally light-hearted.

Naturally. I hope I haven't come across as too bitter or heated over this. I want to make my stance perfectly clear and hope to illuminate my path of logic.

Well if the worst comes to the worst we can always say its permanent constitution drain that can't be restored, then they'll be okay with it, won't they.

At least they'd have to die (i.e. "lose unequivocally") first.

 

[Impeesa]

Great Constitution [Epic]
Benefit: None, really. But you did fight that one monster that one time. That was pretty cool.
Special: You certainly are.

--Impeesa--

 

[Anabstercorian]

Impeesa, VERY good point. If a character fights these, they will certainly suffer a reduction in power that would demand some sort of alteration of their CR/ECL. Am I mistaken in this, UK?

 

[Sledge]

Okay I think I am getting the problem with the whole CR and permanent damage issue. Permanent damage is no more risky in that combat than Vile damage. The fight is not harder with permanent than with Vile. The only difference is that permanent damage is given a higher CR so an appropriate CR creature doing permanent damage will not be as tough as a normal encounter. Permanent damage instead penalizes the characters for the next combat. All in all this seems a little confused, but what if the characters are also using temporary HP? They basically can ignore permanent damage then?
Or are temporary HP suddenly useless?
I do get the point of permanent damage. Big event in a campaign where the players have to do a dangerous task that needs doing, knowing that it will be a major risk. However the lower damage means it won't be a risk fighting the creature, just fighting anything else afterwards. Given that it is epic I doubt it will really be permanent, but I also think that creatures like this had better have a note in the writeup stating that they are just intended to be low risk encounters that weaken the party long term. In some games this can be a great thing to have the party weakened. Restoration would require an actual quest or something, not just a planehop etc etc.