The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Anabstercorian]

The monster book will be released in just 18 days, though.

Won't it, Upper Krust? After all, it would be a shame if someone were to EAT YOUR DOG.

 

[S'mon]

Using the official rules you can't explain the Rain of Colourless Fire even with a Stone of Amplification (Overgod Level Uber-Artifact for anyone reading) and 50 Epic Level Archmages using a ritual with a 100 day casting time (maximum), each using an epic spell slot (max), each burning 10,000 XP (max) and each taking maximum backlash damage. They still couldn't do it! The epic spell DC is in the millions and that was just to affect an empire, not even a continent or a planet. Ironic as it is, nothing truly 'epic' is feasible using the epic rules.

Well in my 1e game it was Bakluni Archmages with 'Fire Rods of Sueloise' and a Stone of Amplification and funnily enough it all worked out ok... In fact it was done again on Ea (my main game world) on a smaller scale when Graz'zt used a fire rod + Stone to destroy Cartheos & Kormir in a Rain of Colourless Fire. When he tried to do it again on Mystara the Stone imploded and created a 60-mile crater in Ylaruam (destroying Ylaruam).
- All that was done using the rules I had for Stones, Fire Rods et al.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

Why not though?

Trust me. I honestly wouldn't worry about epic spells if I were you S'mon.

Why not - so I can actually GM a stable campaign that includes 100th level characters. Of course converting from 1e 400hp Greater Gods start at 40th level, a few more if their 1e levels warrant it (and Thrin is, what, 44th?) but Doomstar works out at nearly 100th AIR - he can flatten cities at will but he certainly can't destroy planets! If you make it that 100th level spellcasters can destroy planets then I'd have to halve Doomstar's caster level or somesuch.

Also, moving away from my specific case, at a typical advancement rate of 3 sessions/level in 3e people who play most days - say 300 days/year - can be 100th in a year! Even at standard rate of 20 levels/year 100th is easily attainable in 5 years' play - and we played a similar amount of sessions in 1e.

10,000 th level casters destroying planets would be ok, if you insist. 100th is far far too low IMO.

Edit: Epic spells - I think Ravi is primarily wanting to use an epic spell seed to get permanent +20 Natural Armour - which IMC is probably a bigger deal than any fireball style blast-magic.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Stop teasing us!

These rules won't be released for months, and it is just cruel to dangle these tidbits in front of us.

Sorry mate...got you curious though didn't it.

I'm just trying to put the epic back into epic level gaming.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Well in my 1e game

This ain't 1e though.

it was Bakluni Archmages with 'Fire Rods of Sueloise'

Ironic that the Bakluni used weapons of Suel construction against the Suel.

and a Stone of Amplification

I was always curious how the Invoked Devastation was carried out if the Stone was used for the Rain of Colourless Fire?

and funnily enough it all worked out ok... In fact it was done again on Ea (my main game world) on a smaller scale when Graz'zt used a fire rod + Stone to destroy Cartheos & Kormir in a Rain of Colourless Fire. When he tried to do it again on Mystara the Stone imploded and created a 60-mile crater in Ylaruam (destroying Ylaruam).
- All that was done using the rules I had for Stones, Fire Rods et al.

Well it 'worked out' because you added an uber artifact (even though it would be classed as a minor artifact because there are dozens of them) to the equation, an artifact that almost certainly no overgod could have created.

It was a case of A + B = C

Where 'A' was the actual magical power and 'C' was the results of the Rain of Colourless Fire. You simply created 'B' to bridge the gap.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Why not - so I can actually GM a stable campaign that includes 100th level characters.

What is so significant about '100th-level'? Why do you 'need' it and more to the point why do you need it to be so feeble?

Of course converting from 1e 400hp Greater Gods start at 40th level,

In S'mons campaign this is folks, not the Immortals Handbook.

a few more if their 1e levels warrant it (and Thrin is, what, 44th?) but Doomstar works out at nearly 100th AIR - he can flatten cities at will but he certainly can't destroy planets!

When initially created Doomstar was, in terms of power:

Overgod > Doomstar > Greater God (Correct!?)

As such when you convert using your system we get:

('Typical') Overgods 61st-level > Doomstar > Greater Gods 37th-level.

If you change the hp divider to 4 (as I suggest on the website) that becomes:

Overgods 65th-level > Doomstar > Greater Gods 40th-level

Either way, Doomstar roughly ends up at between 49-52nd level (Maybe 3 or 4 levels higher to balance his lack of divinity).

This means that a totally min/maxed Doomstar (which I don't think he is) would be able to cast maybe 28th-level spells, although far more likely 21st or thereabouts. Which, coincidently enough corresponds to City level devastation (which you yourself admitted Doomstar was capable of 'at will') using my proposed changes to epic magic.

If you make it that 100th level spellcasters can destroy planets then I'd have to halve Doomstar's caster level or somesuch.

Well you know I'd really feel terrible having to impose upon you so vast an effort.

How many times have you used Doomstar in the past 10 years again!? None is it perchance?

Also, moving away from my specific case, at a typical advancement rate of 3 sessions/level in 3e people who play most days - say 300 days/year - can be 100th in a year! Even at standard rate of 20 levels/year 100th is easily attainable in 5 years' play - and we played a similar amount of sessions in 1e.

Your suggestion of 100 levels in a year is implausible and the idea of 100 levels in 5 years is unlikely.

It should be noted that although Thrin was 117th-level in 1e, he would be nowhere near that figure had we applied the 3rd Edition methods for advancement and you know it. You even converted him to about 44th, which I think is probably a fair appraisal of where he would actually be.

10,000 th level casters destroying planets would be ok,

Funnily enough they still wouldn't be powerful enough using the epic rules.

if you insist.

My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain

100th is far far too low IMO.

I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way

Edit: Epic spells - I think Ravi is primarily wanting to use an epic spell seed to get permanent +20 Natural Armour - which IMC is probably a bigger deal than any fireball style blast-magic.

Did I mention the epic spell system is also unbalanced?

The funny thing is he could just as easily make that a +40 Natural Armour bonus for the same GP/XP cost, by increasing the casting time and taking a little backlash damage.

...and that spell would be a far cheaper spell than Greater Ruin.

One thing I have noticed about the Armour Spell Seed in the ELH is that making it a Deflection bonus instead of an Armour or Natural Armour bonus is rated as five times more costly an increase - which is so insane it must be a mistake.

Base DC is 14 (for +4 AC bonus of any type) +2/point of armour/natural armour and +10/point of deflection etc.

While the Fortify Spell Seed Grants:

Base DC is 17 (base +1 Natural Armour) +4 DC/ point of natural armour.

So if you wanted a +20 AC bonus.

It would be DC 46 using the Armour Spell Seed, DC 154 for a deflection bonus using the armour spell seed and DC 93 using the Fortify Spell Seed. Nice and balanced eh! Can you anticipate which one your wizard wants to use!

I would Hazard a guess and say the Armour Spell Seed is perhaps broken.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Folks, let's not argue with UK. If he's rebutting our points, it means he is not finishing the Bestiary!

 

[S'mon]

>>Ironic that the Bakluni used weapons of Suel construction against the Suel. <<

Who said they were Suel construction? The Fire Rods of Sueloise (named as such in 1e Greyhawk Adventures, not by me) were named such, probably erroneously, by those who discovered them centuries later. Their original name is unknown, but they were most likely crafted by the Bakluni, or discovered by them, or gifted from Incabulos.

>>I was always curious how the Invoked Devastation was carried out if the Stone was used for the Rain of Colourless Fire?<<

AIR the Invoked Devastation was the primary strike by the Suel which involved merging the Baklunish Empire with Hades; causing it to corrode and be overrun with Hordlings. I believe they used the Bringer of Doom artifact - check the 1e MM2 entry "Hordling". I'm guessing the Bringer of Doom was a Theorpart, you could always ask EGG.

>>Well it 'worked out' because you added an uber artifact (even though it would be classed as a minor artifact because there are dozens of them) to the equation, an artifact that almost certainly no overgod could have created.<<

IMC the Stones are Eldren and they have much higher Reality, Physical & Magical factors than the planes of the local Sphere.

Obviously the Rain & Devastation were created by EGG, you can ask him how he justifies them in 3e rules if you like.

 

[S'mon]

Folks, let's not argue with UK.

Oh, ok then...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Oh, ok then...

Feel free to reply to my previous post.

...and I don't really see EGG as an authority on 3rd edition epic spell mechanics, though indeed it would be interesting to hear his comments on the Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colourless Fire. However I know from past discussions with him that he mentioned the Theorpart was a plot device rather than something he had given notion to 'stat out'.