D&D 4E The New Monster Math, Explained and Expanded

I think the lurker section needs a bit of work, mainly around damage. I will use Vincent Gravelstoke, a 12th-level lurker in Threats to the Nentir Vale, as an example. A 12th-level creature could be expected to do 20 damage a hit, making the math easy.

Vincent's at-will attack only does 15 damage on average though. However, his attack does ongoing 10 damage (save ends), treated as +10 damage, when he has combat advantage. In short, a lurker often does weak damage but super-powered combat advantage. His total damage is now 25 (+25% over the expected value). Note that Vincent does not have any special abilities that grant him combat advantage each round; he has to use Stealth or flanking, and he doesn't have special moves letting him shift, teleport, use Stealth better, etc. (Also note that he does not have the combat advantage trait, so the bonus damage only applies to his at-will attack, and not to the other attack I will be describing below.)

Not quite stated clearly, but his parry ability should probably be regarded as "paired" with his combat advantage. Parry lets him gain a +4 bonus to all defenses against a melee attack once per round.

In addition, he has a second "lurker" ability, as befits a paragon lurker. His shadow strike, which recharges when he is bloodied, takes a standard action to use. The effect causes him to be removed from play for a turn (super defense!). At the start of his next turn, he reappears up to 10 squares away from his original position and inflicts a very high damage attack as a standard action: average 30 damage, and the target cannot spend healing surges (save ends).

Sorry that was long and confusing. The math was easy, but nothing else was.

IMO, for every tier, a lurker needs an offense and defense ability. Their regular attack (when not using their lurker offense ability) should only do 3/4 (low) damage.

A pseudodragon is an easier example, although I don't have the numbers in front of me. A pseudodragon is a 3rd-level lurker. It's regular attack does weak damage (low, only 3/4 expected value). It can turn invisible as a standard action. While invisible, it can use a poisonous stinger attack that does high damage (+25%, like a brute, although the flavor is based around ongoing poison damage). The duergar scout has an ability like that too, and when I first saw it I thought it was overpowered. It can turn invisible at will, and it specifically only deals bonus damage when it was invisible when it attacked. That did +4d6 damage, and it's only 4th-level.

As Tequila Starrise noted, a lurker only needs to attack every other round, and has great defenses when not attacking. However, I believe the WotC standard is to give lurkers low damage, but huge bonuses when using their lurker offense ability.
 
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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
IMO, for every tier, a lurker needs an offense and defense ability.
I've been thinking that every monster should have some kind of power upgrade each tier. Like "Each tier, add a recharge power or increase the recharge range of a power it already has." Not sure though.

As Tequila Starrise noted, a lurker only needs to attack every other round, and has great defenses when not attacking. However, I believe the WotC standard is to give lurkers low damage, but huge bonuses when using their lurker offense ability.
I can manage that.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Need to spread XP (original and the formatting). I came tonight here looking to search for some notes on this very subject, and found this instead. Talk about timeliness! :D
 

I've been thinking that every monster should have some kind of power upgrade each tier. Like "Each tier, add a recharge power or increase the recharge range of a power it already has." Not sure though.

That's actually within the rules; generally one "limited" power per tier, although some powers (like combat advantage) are often treated as such a power, especially in the first half of a tier.

I've taken a look at some other lurkers, and while the pattern I've outlined seems generally true, some do even higher damage (eg the cold drake and the level 2 tiefling lurker in Threats to the Nentir Vale; presumably these are limited damage expressions, or something...).
 

Jhaelen

First Post
I've taken a look at some other lurkers, and while the pattern I've outlined seems generally true, some do even higher damage (eg the cold drake and the level 2 tiefling lurker in Threats to the Nentir Vale; presumably these are limited damage expressions, or something...).
I think it depends on the Lurker's method of 'lurking'.
If the Lurker needs a standard action to enter 'lurk mode', they typically deal double damage with their next attack (see MV Wraith or the revised Oni Mage) to make up for a round without attacking.

If entering 'lurker mode' only takes a minor action, trigger, or is part of their normal attack, damage is lower.

There are quite a few lurkers that don't seem to fall within any discernible guidelines, but that's true for other roles, as well. E.g. in Gloomwrought there's an example that looks pretty pathetic to me: Lis the Vile, Level 10 Elite Artillery.
 

Syntallah

First Post
I have a couple of questions concerning the attached guideline document (love it, and thanks btw!):

- do I add the Abilities bonus to each stat after I've assigned the array?
- what is the NAD entry in the roles section?
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
That's actually within the rules; generally one "limited" power per tier, although some powers (like combat advantage) are often treated as such a power, especially in the first half of a tier.
I think it depends on the Lurker's method of 'lurking'.
If the Lurker needs a standard action to enter 'lurk mode', they typically deal double damage with their next attack (see MV Wraith or the revised Oni Mage) to make up for a round without attacking.

If entering 'lurker mode' only takes a minor action, trigger, or is part of their normal attack, damage is lower.
I'm glad you two have chimed in, because I find it hard to get an overall sense of this stuff from the disparate stat blocks.

- do I add the Abilities bonus to each stat after I've assigned the array?
I do, and you can if you choose. Abilities aren't important for monsters, but when the occasional opposed check comes up I like monsters to be able to compete with PCs. (I use the C4 rules, where PCs boost all their stats rather than just two.)

It's really your call.

- what is the NAD entry in the roles section?
Non-Armor Defenses. ;)

And you're welcome!
 

Lurkers and skirmishers seem to have the most variance.

For instance, many skirmishers (such as wolves) do bonus damage under certain circumstances (the wolf does so if the target is knocked prone), and many, instead of having movement abilities, seem to restrict the movement of a single opponent rather than having their own movement options. (The wolf trips opponent, but it's at-will attack lets it shift up to 4 squares away; I would have to seek another example of a "controlling" skirmisher.)

Lurker offense and defense varies considerably, to the point where you might need two or three sets of rules for them. In addition, some lurkers blind their opponents rather than making themselves invisible (the shadar-kai gloomblade and Mr. Tsalaxa from Dark Sun Creature Catalog are examples); such lurkers are really only good against a single opponent at a time.
 

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