The PDF Review Project

Mark CMG · Aug 2, 2005

Good to see so many people stepping up to be reviewers! Great work, everyone, (especially Crothian)!

Joël of the FoS · Aug 2, 2005

Crothian said:
And the publishers want to know about you! So, new reviewers if you want to please tell us a little bit about yourself, your gaming experience, your gaming likes and dislikes, and other relavent things.

40 years, soon 41. Been gaming since ± 1981. I always played D&D, and we switched from 1e to 2e, then to 3.5. I have hundreds of D&D books. I play one Sunday out of two, all day.

I'm the founder of the Ravenloft fan site with the highest trafic.

Father of 2 kids, 11 and 13. I read a lot (many things, from cooking to fantasy to history to travel books to fiction to magazines, etc). I'm now an expert in my professional field so I can work at home, comfortably.

I now DM mostly in Ravenloft since 1991, so I like gothic horror, madness, undead and interesting villains in a campaign. A good D&D book for me has to be stimulating the imagination, and should let me enough room to put my own ideas. The antithesis of this for me is FR in 2e where you got supplements about everything.

Joël

nightprowler4321 · Aug 2, 2005

reveal said:
Ok. I saw this rant and the other rant you posted and, I have to say, you're not creating a good image for your company. Both posts are formatted poorly (no breaks between paragraphs), very difficult to read, and riddled with grammatical and spelling errors.

Honestly, after seeing your posts, I don't think I'll be buying your products anytime soon.

First I will not flamewar with you, not everyone would buy your products either, not even if they considered superior to WOTC. You can't please everyone. Touch'e

I'm not trying to start rant after rant, nor am I trashing the certain company everyone knows who I'm talking about. I said my peace about it, expressed my views and despite me using edgy words, got some very good feedback from the question I eventually posed.

I don't make excuses for my messageboards writing. It might help if enworld carried a spellchecker, but spellcheckers eat alot of resources and with this many people on here, it would probably (I usually abbreviate probably prob but will spell it out I guess) crash. As stated before my messageboards are sometimes pretty lax as are my emails unless it is to a company of importance. Then it all professional as I can be. I do keep the two seperate so as long as I keep my professionislism to what is important to my company, I should be able to type a messageboard every now and then without worrying about this word or that word. Again, its probably getting to be a bad habit, like all the recreational bad habits I do. Duly noted.

Anyway, in my previous "message board mesage" like Phil said, I too have heard horror stories of reviewers. The things I mentioned do happen, not enough for anyone get nervous about and refuse to let others review your material. If I really wanted, I have a cousin, who is fairly well-off; he plays steel drums and has opened for such people as Jimmy Buffet, Bonnie Rait, and Tower of Power, here is the link www.chrisarpad.com As I said he has offered to put up alot of money upfront to bypass things like reviews and um those companies that will sell your product for you. As I have stated before, there is got to be some companies out there who got a bad review, bad sales and went this way to snob off the reviewer. Anyway, I figured I would come up through the trenches the hard way, because to me you learn more and while I may I have my faults, snobbing a reviewer or company that way only proves you have the money to do it, but you still may not know what your doing. Think of it as akin to singers who really aren't good singers, they sing and dance, their songs sell, but people really believe their bad singers, and they people won't buy their entire collection like other singers.
I believe Phil said, it needs to be cooperation between the publisher and the reviewers. I like the way rpgnet does their reviews into breaking down the book into elements. I never heard them trash a product, though certainly they have had constructive criticism of products. I take that back, I heard them talk about the layout of some product, how it put together like a jigsaw puzzle, but then they were hyped about some game mechanic so I guess the guy/company still got a good review.

On to my question for crothian?

What about confidentality agreements? Would you sign one representing the reviewers or would it be best if the reviewer signs one? Of the reviews we asked for in another site, we had the reviewer sign the agreement. Copy/paste is a very powerful tool if use right, I seen things snatched off websites and snuggled deep into folders that you would never know your material is being used without your permission or given to someone else. No it wasn't me or anyone I would call a friend, but you hang around the internet long enough you see things or I should say hear about them in chats and so on. You can't stop piracy, that I know. Reviews sometimes are used for unpublished material to generate a reaction to it so the publisher can decide what further he wants to do. That's were caution from companies like me step forward.

This project is still running right? I didn't catch the tail end of it. Are the reviews posted here? Or do the reviewers post a link here to the reviews? I personally if I thought about doing this of having more then one reviewer look at the product perhaps as much as three to get a variance of opinion. I don't know if your operation works that way, it seems to be one reviewer for one product. What about posting the reviewers comments on other sites?
The reason I ask is because some reviewers may feel that posting their comments on a personal website whether the review is good or bad is like a personal attack on them. If I was a reviewer to me it wouldn't matter, but I'm not everyone else.
Now me, I usually gave comp pdf copies to the reviewer no matter what the comment as a way of thanking him. It is alot to read a 256 page pdf then give a review on it when you volunteer for it. You can only hope for the best. You may think, ok the reviewer gives you a bad review and you give him the product. Well, perhaps he will turn it on to someone else and they will think it is good.

pogre · Aug 2, 2005

Crothian said:
And the publishers want to know about you! So, new reviewers if you want to please tell us a little bit about yourself, your gaming experience, your gaming likes and dislikes, and other relavent things.

I am in my late 30's and started gaming in 2nd grade with my uncle - 30 years of gaming this Christmas! I am a licensed attorney in Illinois. I gave up my law practice to teach social studies (A.P.U.S. History, World History, and Government) and coach (football and track & field).

I'm about to be very scarce because of football season. I often go weeks without posting in the Fall. I'm married with three kids and a fourth on the way. I game every week except in the Fall when we take about a three month break for football.

I'm affiliated loosely with BadAxe Games - I rarely contribute much, Ben's a one man wrecking crew! If I ever have anything substantive published I will certainly bow out of the reviewing process. Obviously I will avoid reviewing BadAxe product and Phil Reed's products (although not an issue anymore) because BadAxe published some of his stuff.

Years ago I vanity published a little miniatures game and the experience taught me to respect those who are trying to get into the market. I try to be a very positive person and give folks an honest assessment of where I'm coming from and describe how I used their product.

pogre · Aug 2, 2005

I posted my first review of Powers That Be: City Council over at rpg.net and the counter says it has been read 431 times. It was certainly a more involved process getting the review posted over there, but if you have written a longer indepth review - it could be worth your time.

Crothian · Aug 2, 2005

nightprowler4321 said:
On to my question for crothian?

What about confidentality agreements? Would you sign one representing the reviewers or would it be best if the reviewer signs one? Of the reviews we asked for in another site, we had the reviewer sign the agreement. Copy/paste is a very powerful tool if use right, I seen things snatched off websites and snuggled deep into folders that you would never know your material is being used without your permission or given to someone else. No it wasn't me or anyone I would call a friend, but you hang around the internet long enough you see things or I should say hear about them in chats and so on. You can't stop piracy, that I know. Reviews sometimes are used for unpublished material to generate a reaction to it so the publisher can decide what further he wants to do. That's were caution from companies like me step forward.

I've never been asked to sign one for reviews but I wouldn't be against it. I would not sign nor would I take the responsibility of one for any other reviewer. I have no problem helping out getting reveiws and reviewers but legal documents is where I'm drawing the line. But feel free to contact other individual, I think that would be best.

I think in my three years reviewing and of the hundred of products I've gotten 2 were given to me before they had reached publication. One was to give feedback to author to make sure the book was okay, a little book called A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. The other was specifically to have a review done by the time the PDF was released. Those are the only ones I recall that I got early and niether asked for any confidentality agreements. Again, I'm not saying one is bad or I'm against it, I'm just relating my experience.

This project is still running right? I didn't catch the tail end of it. Are the reviews posted here? Or do the reviewers post a link here to the reviews? I personally if I thought about doing this of having more then one reviewer look at the product perhaps as much as three to get a variance of opinion. I don't know if your operation works that way, it seems to be one reviewer for one product. What about posting the reviewers comments on other sites? The reason I ask is because some reviewers may feel that posting their comments on a personal website whether the review is good or bad is like a personal attack on them. If I was a reviewer to me it wouldn't matter, but I'm not everyone else.

Still going on, though I slowed it down since we were actually generating too many reviews which frankly I think is a pretty cool if annoying problem. The reviews are getting posted to EN World in the review section here I'm a little hap hazard in handing things out. I do try to get a variety of books covered and I do hand out the same book to more then one person. I am more concnerned with trying to get equal number of reviews per publisher then per product, but some publishers just have more books out there to review. Publishers quote reviews on their sites all the time. I'm actually shocked to see how many of my reviews have gotten quoted, I'm not used to that. I'd like publishers to tell me they are quoting me just so I can bask in the glorious glow of being quoted, not that I'd ever ask them not to. I've never heard of any problem with reviewrs on it, but I'll go on the record and say quote me till the cows come home.

Now me, I usually gave comp pdf copies to the reviewer no matter what the comment as a way of thanking him. It is alot to read a 256 page pdf then give a review on it when you volunteer for it. You can only hope for the best. You may think, ok the reviewer gives you a bad review and you give him the product. Well, perhaps he will turn it on to someone else and they will think it is good.

Comping products for reviews is a very long a difficult subject. I have my own opinions on it and the types of revioews it generates, but I'm also a bit biased being one who gets the comp copies. I though do not give away PDFs I get for review. The exception is when I have permission like in this thread to give out review copies. It just doesn't feel right to give them away.

Infernal Teddy · Aug 2, 2005

Crothian said:
And the publishers want to know about you! So, new reviewers if you want to please tell us a little bit about yourself, your gaming experience, your gaming likes and dislikes, and other relavent things.

Okay then. I'm 28, and have been gaming since ca. 1990. I started off with AD&D 2nd, Rifts and Mage, and since then I've tried tons of stuff, including being on of 6 1/2 people to ever run a game of HOL.

I'´m a british citizen, born in scotland, grew up in wales, and have lived in germany for the last 19 years, meaning that I'm fluent in both languages. I'll play almost anything on the planet at least once. When it comes to fantasy suppliments I prefer stuff I can ether slot straight into my running game, or setting material that is so facinating that I want to run a game immediatly. I'm a goth, a punk and a Headbanger.

Also, my girlfiend happens to love faries. :lol:

That any help?

MavrickWeirdo · Aug 2, 2005

Infernal Teddy said:
I'´m a british citizen, born in scotland, grew up in wales, and have lived in germany for the last 19 years, meaning that I'm fluent in both languages.

So you are fluent in scotch gaelic and welsh?

Infernal Teddy · Aug 2, 2005

MavrickWeirdo said:
So you are fluent in scotch gaelic and welsh?

I spoke more-or-less fluent welsh when I was a kid, but after 19 years without speaking a word, I've forgotten everything I knew...

HellHound · Aug 2, 2005

nightprowler4321 said:
"the rule of 2's"

"and unfortunately these people usually have money to burn sometimes"

"trouble making the product viable to certain company because I honestly think they see the one column and reject it"

These are the three elements I am going to talk about, as someone who has been publishing d20 PDFs for quite some time.

The rule of 2's is important. It is incredibly difficult to balance a race and use +1 / -1 modifiers, because of the ease of making a +1 modifier the same as a +2, and the ease of making a -1 modifier the same as a -0, just by applying these numbers to odd-numbered attributes. This is really a game design element, but as a player and DM, I reject odd-numbered stat modifiers out of hand. -IF- the race is cool nonetheless, then I'll look at how to rebuild the race to work using the d20 rules set (and thus using even stat modifiers). However, I will always remember that the race came from a publisher who doesn't seem to understand the rules of designing d20 products.

Money to burn... As if.
Find me -one- publisher in this industry with money to burn. This is an industry for people who love what they do, not for people with wads of cash to blow. Even the worst violators of the basics of d20 design were working on shoestring budgets, trying their best to try to make some money from their work. Making $5k from a run of 500 books? Never going to happen.

Single Column Layout.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Single column layout is NOT innovative in this field. We did it. We got trashed for it. We don't do it anymore. Single column layout is VERY difficult to read unless you put it on a very narrow page. 8 inch lines of text are too long to read comfortably unless printed in a ridiculously large type face. I really believe that the playtest response to your 2-column layout is an anomaly. I am saying this from a position of experience in the industry, with over 40 PDF products released using a variety of layout styles, including single-column and landscape designs. When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of the buying public wants 2-column design.

I like the way rpgnet does their reviews into breaking down the book into elements. I never heard them trash a product, though certainly they have had constructive criticism of products.

The PDF Review Project

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games

Joël of the FoS

First Post

nightprowler4321

First Post

pogre

Legend

pogre

Legend

Crothian

First Post

Infernal Teddy

Explorer

MavrickWeirdo

First Post

Infernal Teddy

Explorer

HellHound

ENnies winner and NOT Scrappy Doo

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