The place of Science in Fantasy settings

[Johnny Angel]

I myself would find a campaign less interesting that simply assumed magic obviated science. This is in part because I get a serious nerd-on for retro-tech from as far back as flint arrowheads, but also because there's little reason to assume that magic would be considered distinct from science in a world in which it was demonstrably real, as MarkB pointed out. What I think is more interesting is the question of what, in a world in which magic clearly and demonstrably works, are people irrationally superstitious about?

In our own world, we've invented cell phones, which can theoretically call any other cell phone, and we take this fairly astonishing fact of nearly instantaneous worldwide communications for granted now. Yet you can make money selling pieces of plastic to people who are prepared to believe that these pieces do something that your cell phone manufacturer couldn't figure out to do that will both boost your reception and block radiation -- never mind the fact that your phone call is radiation.

 

[jester47]

When you really look at it, our knowledge about how to get work done has not really advanced much past the 19th century. Most of the advances are in materials science and automation, which has allowed us to super refine a lot of technological ideas that are very old. The new stuff is nanotech and genetics.

I would suspect that in a world where wizards are required to have very high intelligence, you would have magic supplemented with a lot of devices and alchemy.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Magic can also hinder the progression of technology. People might have less inherent curiosity about how things work if it can be done by magic.

"Daddy, how do birds fly?"
"Magic, son. I seen one of them Wizards cast himself a spell and zoom off into the sky. Birds must just do the same thing."
"Oh, I thought the structure of their wings might create a differential in air pressure providing lift to their strong, but lightly constructed bodies."
"I doubt that. That Wizard I seen didn't sprout wings, but he was certainly flying."

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

For Urbis, I've gone with the assumption that magic is simply part of the sciences and that its laws can be researched with the right tools just like any other scientific field. And many inhabitants of the setting do indeed engage in scientific research - which makes sense, since the dominant cultures and societies are roughly analogous to late 19th century Europe.

Likewise, the current "industrial revolution" the setting is going through is powered by both magic and "mundane technology". Magic and magic items are seen as yet another tool - more useful in some aspects than in others. Limited mass production of magic items is possible, although that doesn't mean that everyone can actually afford magic items.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I’ve always found it interesting, and disappointing, in how so many people are so adamant that there can only be one or the other. There can be magic and no science or there can be science and no magic. There are exceptions – Rifts, Urbis – but for the most part people (and the settings they create) all clench their teeth, demand it be one way or the other and essentially tell people to like it or lump it.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

What I think is more interesting is the question of what, in a world in which magic clearly and demonstrably works, are people irrationally superstitious about?.

And this is one of the reasons why I believe that magic is diametrically opposed to science, logic, and rationale. Consider magical thinking:

In anthropology, psychology and cognitive science magical thinking is causal reasoning that often includes such ideas as the law of contagion, correlation equalling causation, the power of symbols and the ability of the mind to affect the physical world.

Like science, magic is concerned with causal relations, but unlike science, it does not distinguish correlation from causation. For example, a man who has won a bowling competition in a given shirt may then believe this shirt is lucky. He will continue to wear the shirt to bowling competitions, and though he continues to win some and lose some, he will chalk up every win to his lucky shirt.

Magical thinking can occur when one simply does not understand possible causes, as illustrated by Sir Arthur C. Clarke's suggestion that “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” (see Clarke's three laws), but can also occur in response to situations that are largely random or chaotic, such as a coin toss, as well as in situations that one has little or no control over, especially those one is emotionally invested in. (Indeed, this can be seen as a special case of failure to understand possible causes: specifically, a failure to understand the laws of probability that guarantee the occurrence of coincidences and seeming patterns.) See below for more specific examples.

Who would exhibit the greatest amount of magical thinking if not spellcasters? And in a society where magic is demonstrable, I believe that magical thinking would be prevasive and that science, logic, reason, mathematics, et al. would be quite rare.

DrunkonDuty rightly pointed out that the Mediæval mindset is one of guilds jealously guarding their trade secrets. And consider Mediæval heraldry — the emblems are of creatures in static forms rather than natural ones. This reflected the Mediæval belief of continuity with the past rather than innovation. Consider the concept of a Golden Age found in the Greek and Latin writers as well as the Christian Church. Mediæval “intellectuals” looked to the past for the most part rather than the future. We remember the great forward thinkers of the Middle Ages who precipitated the Renaissance precisely because they were so rare.

For these reasons, I believe that the more pervasive the magic the less technologically advanced the society is.

 

[Set]

Certain branches of science would, IMO, be much advanced by the presence of magic.

All those aging wizards, squinting at their spellbooks under flickering light for long decades would probably single-handedly fund great advances in optics, not just for lenses for alchemical research or telescopes to study heavenly conjunctions, but simply because they'd all end up needing spectacles in short order!

Anatomy would be greatly advanced, thanks to the abundance of mostly-humanoid corpses available for morally-conscionable dissection. (Even the most civilized of regions may well tolerate using Orcs or Goblins for this purpose, although they might frown on the idea of actually hunting down and killing humanoids for this purpose. But who is going to ask the adventurers where those Kobold bodies came from anyway? Surely they were troublesome raiders. slain for the common good...) The presence of healing magics and transformation magics would seriously alter studies of biology. When a wizard or sorcerer or druid can transform herself into a specific creature, she doesn't have to write a treatise on how exactly a bat's blindsense works, she can just say, 'And this was how it worked, and I know, because I turned into one! Indeed, these marvelous creatures can *see* through the application of *sound!*'

Given the often precise nature of spell component requirements, a standardized system of weights and measures would be in the best interest of the arcane community to develop and strictly enforce. Best not to be standing confidently in the path of a charging Minotaur when one discovers that the '10 oz of powdered kava kava bean' is actually only 9.8 oz when the spell fizzles...

Other circumstances of a supernatural world would lead to scientific missteps. In the medieval world, gold was considered the most pure mystical metal, closest to perfection. In a fantasy world where gold has no mystical properties, but *silver* has special properties and efficacy against lycanthropes and some forms of outsider, it's going to be silver that is considered the 'special' metal. Silver, in a fantasy world, may well be the more valuable metal, with gold considered a lesser metal! (Mithril and Adamant coins would likely also exist, as well as jewelry of those even more precious metals. Nobles with any sort of money wouldn't wear gold, because it's cheap compared to mithril! Those bourgois mechants who like to wish they were nobles might wear gold...)

Similarly, the sun might be considered a gateway into the plane of positive energy, explaining it's effect on vampires and other creatures fueled by negative energy (and the life-empowering properties of sunlight on plant life). And so, photosynthesis might not be realized for quite some time, as the orthodoxy embraces the 'obvious' connection between sunlight and life-giving positive energy. *Of course,* plants thrive in the presence of the energy of life itself! And humans sometimes grow heated of skin, as the energies overload their bodies and become too much for them to contain. Like the theory of balanced humors, the 'natural philosopher' might believe that a human can only take so much of the life-giving energy of the sun, and must balance it with time spent cooling down in the shade, or by consuming quantities of water to help re-balance his internal alchemy, which has been thrown out of balance by a surfeit of fire!

Divination spells would also make a huge difference. "Hmm. I believe that the earth has a natural magnetism that pulls things down into it. Let's Contact Other Plane to check this theory. EHHH. Wrong answer."

 

[Mark Chance]

Who would exhibit the greatest amount of magical thinking if not spellcasters? And in a society where magic is demonstrable....

And here your entire argument crumbles. Magical thinking is not demonstrable magic. Magical thinking conflates correlation with cause and effect in the same way you conflate magical thinking with the concept of working magic within a fantasy setting. Demonstrable magic demonstrates causes effects. That is precisely not what the concept of magical thinking criticizes.

 

[Davelozzi]

And rail lines require an enormous amount of steel track that must all be made to a single standard (and laid to single gauge. Is the lightning rail mono- or dual- rail?)

Despite the misleading name, the lightning rail doesn't really run on "rails" at all, it is just a path of evenly spaced magical stones of some sort that causes the train to fly above the line.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Despite the misleading name, the lightning rail doesn't really run on "rails" at all, it is just a path of evenly spaced magical stones of some sort that causes the train to fly above the line.

Right. They'd be more on par with Maglevs than old fashioned trains.