The problem with D&D

[WhatGravitas]

Do yourself a favor - grab a copy of GURPS Lite (for the kind of things you want, GURPS is probably your best bet) and tell your players, either you're arsed to try this or somebody else takes over the GM's chair. GURPS Lite is a quick system to learn and will solve most, if not all, of your conceptual problems with D&D.

Seconded. D&D is just the wrong game for you. Your complaint is akin to the complaint of a soccer player demanding a redesign of basketball, because the baskets are too high and too small, and that the ball should played with your foot.

On a more constructive note: If possible you can also try out Shadowrun - could also float your boat, if you like the setting. The mechanics are closer to your vision of mechanics.

And you can find GURPS Lite here.

And your problem with D&D players who don't want to learn a new system? Well, even if D&D is redesigned, they wouldn't want to learn this "new system" as well - they'll probably they that this new edition/version/whatever is "dumb" or "stupid".

 

[Melan]

So play something else, probably?

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

As you can see just from that we pretty much shot the system to pieces. Why not change systems? Well we have a group of dedicated D&D players (read can't be arsed to learn a new set of rules) and the system is simple and keeps moving. If only it did not grind so much when people stopped just walking up and trying to trade blows in a static fashion.

DnD is, and always has been, a game based on experience points, hit points, levels and character classes. Some bits and pieces thave been tweaked over the years, like the addition of skills and feats. But, the ‘flaws’ you perceive in the system have always been there.

There are other systems. Many don’t use levels or character classes, some don’t even use hit points or experience points. I could list them, but I won’t. Why not? Because:

We have looked into some alternatives but it seems that all of them are trying to differentiate themselves too much from D&D and end up being acquired tastes (something our players aren't liable to do willingly).

I’d say that all systems are acquired tastes. For almost twenty years my taste has been for skill/percentage based systems. There are several.

Oh and yes if your thinking that I'm a little old school then that's true. I do hanker after the days of musty black and white rule books with long words in them and a recommended age past ten. I don't see that as bad though as I increasingly am finding role-playing games getting "dumbed down" to attract larger portions of the populace.

I’ve been playing games since the late 70’s. Those ‘musty black and white rule books’ aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. And many of the ‘classic’ modules don’t stand up to my cynical 21st century scrutiny. You’re entitled to your opinion but don’t if you’re expecting any new edition to address the ‘flaws’ for you, you’re going to be disappointed. You “can't be arsed to learn a new set of rules” but you don’t like the ones you’re using!

That’s like buying a beefburger then posting a complaint (on the McDonalds website) that you’re a vegetarian and you’ve been given meat in your bun.

 

[Xini]

The troll comment is hardly unexpected as I'm posting a criticism of part of the reason this place exists but I was kind of hoping to find like minded individuals who may in fact be interested in a discussion into the finer points of these errors and possible temporary fixes or alternate solutions.

As for asking WotC for anything, I don't believe I did. I merely remarked that I found their present offerings lacking.

I don't expect this line of thinking to suit everyone but I resisted the urge to post a disclaimer at the beginning none the less.

Edit - OMG!! It never rains but it pours!!! Thanks guys. I'll be responding as soon as I can catch up. Posting from work has it's drawbacks

 

[phindar]

Personally I'd like to see some kind of overall general capabilities of magic which are guidelines for what magic can and cannot do whilst simultaneously relaxing the borders on spells so that a fireball (for instance) is not it's own spell but rather something you can do with a certain level of skill in a fire based spell. It'd be quite simple to break down most spells into various categories so that skills could be used and then each casters personal choice on where they place their skill points would be reflected in their capability with their spell selection.

Okay, this one I agree with. (Actually, I don't think any of your points are wrong, I just see them as necessary evils of D&D, which is otherwise a fast and reasonably simple rule set.) Magic handles the unleashing of arcane and divine energies with all the wonderment and awe of applying for a small-business loan.

If its versatility you're after, Arcana Evolved has a pretty interesting take on a magic system. It's kind of like D&D in that there are spell levels, and a lot of D&D spells are in AE in some form or another, but how you get access to them and how you cast them is a lot different. Plus, there are a lot more feats that reflect a spellcasters theme, and metamagic is a lot different.

Other than that, I'm not sure how you can take the magic, classes, d20, and levelling out of D&D and still call it D&D. At that point, it seems like you'd be better off taking a multi-dice, non-class-based system like Shadowrun or Vampire and adding feats to it.

 

[Vrecknidj]

What a fun post.

Bleh.

Dave

 

[Yair]

Changing D&D as extensively as you would have to to accomodate the kind of 'realism' you want means your players will have to learn far, far more new rules, and most likely rules of a lower caliber, than if you were to switch systems.

Do yourself a favor - grab a copy of GURPS Lite (for the kind of things you want, GURPS is probably your best bet) and tell your players, either you're arsed to try this or somebody else takes over the GM's chair. GURPS Lite is a quick system to learn and will solve most, if not all, of your conceptual problems with D&D.

FWIW, what you see as problems with the system are almost certainly, with its brand recognition, its greatest strengths. D&D no more needs to realistically model combat and exploration than Monopoly needs to realistically model real estate trading. More realistic games are available in both fields, and their success is paltry in comparison.

QFT

I'd say abandon your group, and go learn Ars Magica. It solves all your problems except the dice thingie (use FUDGE dice +5 or something), and in particular presents an very realistic model of character advencement through life experience and a coherent and comprehensive worldview and theory of magic. In some ways it's complicated, but hey. Most importantly, it's my favorite game.

[sblock]Troll? What troll?[/sblock]

 

[Fifth Element]

The troll comment is hardly unexpected as I'm posting a criticism of part of the reason this place exists but I was kind of hoping to find like minded individuals who may in fact be interested in a discussion into the finer points of these errors...

If you're wondering why you've been called a troll, notice that you just referred to these perceived flaws as "errors". D&D was designed the way it was designed. These are not errors, they are design decisions.

You obviously don't want to be playing D&D. Move on to another system, there's piles of them out there.

 

[Technomancer]

Magic handles the unleashing of arcane and divine energies with all the wonderment and awe of applying for a small-business loan.

I may have to steal that line for my signature (but probably not on this board )

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The troll comment is hardly unexpected as I'm posting a criticism of part of the reason this place exists but I was kind of hoping to find like minded individuals who may in fact be interested in a discussion into the finer points of these errors and possible temporary fixes or alternate solutions.

With the exception of not using a d20 mechanic your post just described GURPS. So combining that with brand new poster Trolling seemed to fit. If you weren't, well aside from switching to 3d6 and roll under for checks GURPS is for you.

As for asking WotC for anything, I don't believe I did. I merely remarked that I found their present offerings lacking.

You brought up the spectre of 4e, one of the biggest annoying troll topics on this board and linked it with totally rewriting all the features that make it D&D rather than say, GURPS. Being new you wouldn't have known these things.

In short if you were serious, then jump ship to GURPS cause it sounds like your cup of tea, that or maybe Harn. Sometimes it's more trouble to try fitting a system to a style it was never meant to do than just finding a new one.