The problem with fighting drow
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
drowdude
First Post
***Only read the first post***
The problem appears to be fighting drow in a campaign run by someone with no concept of how the rules work.
I really dont have time to go into how incredibly flawed the vast majority of your initial post is. I can only hope that it has been addressed by others in the thread.
The problem appears to be fighting drow in a campaign run by someone with no concept of how the rules work.
I really dont have time to go into how incredibly flawed the vast majority of your initial post is. I can only hope that it has been addressed by others in the thread.
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Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Ok, then ...
How would a battle go, then, between your typical mid-level adventuring party of 7 PCs, and 7 drow in a drow outpost, in the Underdark?
If my description is fatally flawed, very well.
I would like to hear your description of this event.
After all, I have only expressed my opinions, based on personal experience and conceptions I read in the books.
Now, I wish to hear your opinions, and hear your experiences, and your conceptions.
Go for it!
And nice to hear from you again, Balor! Long time no see!
How would a battle go, then, between your typical mid-level adventuring party of 7 PCs, and 7 drow in a drow outpost, in the Underdark?
If my description is fatally flawed, very well.
I would like to hear your description of this event.
After all, I have only expressed my opinions, based on personal experience and conceptions I read in the books.
Now, I wish to hear your opinions, and hear your experiences, and your conceptions.
Go for it!
And nice to hear from you again, Balor! Long time no see!
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Re
Edena,
I just personally feel dwarves are often underestimated. The drow are strong, and if they attacked Mithral Hall in force, it would be a tough fight. The drow would probably win if they brought all their armies. A 1 for 1 drow army would be wiped though in my opinion.
Contrary to what you stated, the dwarves are actually the best smiths in the lands. Their gods are the fathers of smithing and their whole culture is based upon smithing and mining. What drow Gods can possible equal Moradin in smithing? What drow gods know the earth better than Dumathoin?
No one except the gnomes and perhaps Gonds followers compare to the dwarves when it comes to metal work and smithing. If your DM does not acknowledge the superior smithing and mining abilities of the dwarves, then he or she doesn't read much dwarven mythology or even read the dwarven information in the FR books. Heck, dwarves receive an innate racial bonus withs smithing skills. Their armor and weapons are the best available for defense and battle.
From all that I have read on dwarves, the armies of Menzobaranzzan would dash upon the stone wall of dwarves that faced them. I don't think simple battle magics like fireball and such would faze a ready contingent of dwarves facing an attack upon their home. Sleep poisons would hardly affect hardy dwarves. Their axes would fell drow warriors very quickly, yet the blades of the drow would be deflected by the mithral armor of the elite dwarf shock troops.
Dwarves are dwarves. They live to war against their enemies. They are good at war. They love war more than humans or elves. They are loyal to each other and work with a degree of precision unheard of in other armies. A 1000 dwarves is worth 5000 humans. A 1000 dwarves is at the very least equal to a 1000 drow.
I still wait for the day when they write a book with a dwarven hero as the main character, but not many folks seem to like dwarves as the main characters for some reason. They love drow though, which is probably why some DM's like to make drow seem so invincible.
Edena,
I just personally feel dwarves are often underestimated. The drow are strong, and if they attacked Mithral Hall in force, it would be a tough fight. The drow would probably win if they brought all their armies. A 1 for 1 drow army would be wiped though in my opinion.
Contrary to what you stated, the dwarves are actually the best smiths in the lands. Their gods are the fathers of smithing and their whole culture is based upon smithing and mining. What drow Gods can possible equal Moradin in smithing? What drow gods know the earth better than Dumathoin?
No one except the gnomes and perhaps Gonds followers compare to the dwarves when it comes to metal work and smithing. If your DM does not acknowledge the superior smithing and mining abilities of the dwarves, then he or she doesn't read much dwarven mythology or even read the dwarven information in the FR books. Heck, dwarves receive an innate racial bonus withs smithing skills. Their armor and weapons are the best available for defense and battle.
From all that I have read on dwarves, the armies of Menzobaranzzan would dash upon the stone wall of dwarves that faced them. I don't think simple battle magics like fireball and such would faze a ready contingent of dwarves facing an attack upon their home. Sleep poisons would hardly affect hardy dwarves. Their axes would fell drow warriors very quickly, yet the blades of the drow would be deflected by the mithral armor of the elite dwarf shock troops.
Dwarves are dwarves. They live to war against their enemies. They are good at war. They love war more than humans or elves. They are loyal to each other and work with a degree of precision unheard of in other armies. A 1000 dwarves is worth 5000 humans. A 1000 dwarves is at the very least equal to a 1000 drow.
I still wait for the day when they write a book with a dwarven hero as the main character, but not many folks seem to like dwarves as the main characters for some reason. They love drow though, which is probably why some DM's like to make drow seem so invincible.
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Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I have seen relatively few dwarven PCs myself.
It is a shame, in my opinion. Players seem to shy away from dwarves - or, at least, they did when I was actively gaming.
Considering all of the potential dwarves have, you'd think most players would try playing one.
The fact that the dwarves of Mithril Hall had practically unlimited access to that metal would have made a real difference.
Mithril Arms and Armor crafted by dwarves would be rather extraordinary stuff, a match for the magical arms and armor of the drow maybe (at least, as I conceive of them, and remember them.)
Tell me more.
I wish to hear your thinking on the Battle of Mithril Hall.
If you have any opinions on the hypothetical party-drow battle, I'd like to hear them.
It is a shame, in my opinion. Players seem to shy away from dwarves - or, at least, they did when I was actively gaming.
Considering all of the potential dwarves have, you'd think most players would try playing one.
The fact that the dwarves of Mithril Hall had practically unlimited access to that metal would have made a real difference.
Mithril Arms and Armor crafted by dwarves would be rather extraordinary stuff, a match for the magical arms and armor of the drow maybe (at least, as I conceive of them, and remember them.)
Tell me more.
I wish to hear your thinking on the Battle of Mithril Hall.
If you have any opinions on the hypothetical party-drow battle, I'd like to hear them.
AvarielAvenger
First Post
Re: Re
I completely disagree here. I'd say, in fact, that the Human Empires Armies and Mercenary Companies are the out and out best among any race, in almost any world, for one simple reason: Diversity.
Why do you think the majority of players prefer to use a Human? Humans offer, among the varied races, unparallelled customization and uniqueness thanks to the bonus feat and skill points. On a completely even battlefield, with equal troops, I'd bet on Human armies every single time. Dwarves are perhaps slightly better Fighters than Humans (and that's debatable), but Humans are better at just about everything else. People really underestimate the Humans too much.
But anyway, back to the topic at hand... The Drow impress me no more than any other race. Edena, your example is flawed not only in it's many erroneous assumptions, but in the fact you give the Drow practically every advantage possible: Home terrain, ambush, winning initiative, magic items that are above and beyond what they should possess, etc.
Give that same 12th level party all those advantages, with higher level magic then they should possess, automatically winning initiative, home terrain, and an ambush and I'd wager those Drow would be cut down even faster than the party. Drow, like almost all the rest of the Elves, have a negative to Constitution, and fall even faster than most in an ambush situation.
Like I said above, the Drow really don't impress me, and they never have. I find other races far more interesting and deadly, and in my opinion the Drow are nothing more than a group of Elves with an ECL. I don't really understand why they have this "mystique" with so many gamers. They don't seem all that special to me. YMMV, of course.
Celtavian said:
I completely disagree here. I'd say, in fact, that the Human Empires Armies and Mercenary Companies are the out and out best among any race, in almost any world, for one simple reason: Diversity.
Why do you think the majority of players prefer to use a Human? Humans offer, among the varied races, unparallelled customization and uniqueness thanks to the bonus feat and skill points. On a completely even battlefield, with equal troops, I'd bet on Human armies every single time. Dwarves are perhaps slightly better Fighters than Humans (and that's debatable), but Humans are better at just about everything else. People really underestimate the Humans too much.
But anyway, back to the topic at hand... The Drow impress me no more than any other race. Edena, your example is flawed not only in it's many erroneous assumptions, but in the fact you give the Drow practically every advantage possible: Home terrain, ambush, winning initiative, magic items that are above and beyond what they should possess, etc.
Give that same 12th level party all those advantages, with higher level magic then they should possess, automatically winning initiative, home terrain, and an ambush and I'd wager those Drow would be cut down even faster than the party. Drow, like almost all the rest of the Elves, have a negative to Constitution, and fall even faster than most in an ambush situation.
Like I said above, the Drow really don't impress me, and they never have. I find other races far more interesting and deadly, and in my opinion the Drow are nothing more than a group of Elves with an ECL. I don't really understand why they have this "mystique" with so many gamers. They don't seem all that special to me. YMMV, of course.
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Derulbaskul
Adventurer
I can recall DMing a party of six absurdly powerful 7th+ level characters in 2E up against a dozen 3rd level drow clerics.
"Hold person" soon put an end to that campaign....
Cheers
NPP
"Hold person" soon put an end to that campaign....
Cheers
NPP
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
The power of Hold Person, as a 2nd edition spell, I have seen demonstrated over and over again.
Nothing like taking down the entire enemy group in a single round.
So yeah, I could well see a Total Party Kill in the case of your group, Derulbaskul.
I always thought of Hold Person as one of the main reasons why you simply HAD to win initiative on that first round.
Nothing like taking down the entire enemy group in a single round.
So yeah, I could well see a Total Party Kill in the case of your group, Derulbaskul.
I always thought of Hold Person as one of the main reasons why you simply HAD to win initiative on that first round.
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