The problem with fighting drow

[JacktheRabbit]

I say again the drow you describe are not Book Drow. The Drow you describe would not even exist in houses since it would serve them no purpose.

Your Drow would never engage in House to House fighting. Your Drow would never murder an elder brother or sister to raise in rank.

So I ask what is the point? We could talk about this till the end of time but it would still solve nothing. The Drow you describe are so over the top in ever category that it becomes meaningless.

Debating this makes as much sense as me starting a thread about how my home brew version of DL Gully Dwarves were so bad ass that epic characters would run in terror and beg to fight entire tribes of Tarrasques instead.

Does that make them cool and tough? No it makes me a rather boring power gamer for a DM who can't do anything better than throw outrageously overpowered and overequiped munchkin foes at my players.

Your biggest arguement seems to be that the only thing that holds back the Drow are their chaotic nature. Well duhhh!!! That is like saying naked drow would be good at hiding in snow if not for their black skin. Their chaotic nature is at the very core of their being. It is probably what drove them into the initial war with the surface elves. That chaotic nature explains just about every powerful aspect of Drow society. The lack of trust and predictability forces Drow to be the ultimate survivors. IF they were not always looking over their shoulders for the assassins blade they would not be as powerful individually as they are because they would not have the drive to be. So if you let your Drow have none of their standard chaotic nature and work perfectly together then you would have to take away all those levels of experience and nasty magic items created purely BECAUSE they do not trust each other.

 

[Zappo]

Oh, the drow Edena described are legit drows. It's how they seem to win every single roll, while the PCs lose every single roll of theirs, and how they ignore a half dozen rules to their advantage, and how the PCs act like complete morons, that makes them win. Not their level or equipment. Additionally, they're starting an ambush, which in 3e terms would bump the EL quite a bit.

Powerful? Yeah.

Dangerous? Yeah.

Lethal? Well... yeah.

Horrific Cthulhesque Undefeatable Elder Gods from Outer Space? No way.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

No my problem is with how he describes how they act. His Drow do nto act like Drow. They sacrifice for their companions and work as perfect teams.

That is about as likely as a black man and a KKK member walking down mainstreet arm in arm while singing Kumbaya.

His foes may look like Drow. They may also be equiped like the most elite Drow of any campaign but they do not in any way shape or form ACT like Drow.

Oh, the drow Edena described are legit drows. It's how they seem to win every single roll, while the PCs lose every single roll of theirs, and how they ignore a half dozen rules to their advantage, and how the PCs act like complete morons, that makes them win. Not their level or equipment. Additionally, they're starting an ambush, which in 3e terms would bump the EL quite a bit.

Powerful? Yeah.

Dangerous? Yeah.

Lethal? Well... yeah.

Horrific Cthulhesque Undefeatable Elder Gods from Outer Space? No way.

 

[Zappo]

No my problem is with how he describes how they act. His Drow do nto act like Drow. They sacrifice for their companions and work as perfect teams.

Yes, and that too. I meant to underline that their levels and equipment aren't especially over-the-top. They are good, but not incredibly so. They win mostly because the gods seem to be favoring them, and also because they don't fight like innately Chaotic Evil beings (who should fight ala "everyone on his own").

Then again, I've never bothered much with drow... what I know comes mostly from Black Isle games (where they did usually have +3 to +5 weapons and armor) and a couple of Drizzt books.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I would not put too much faith in that game as a description of the drow. Everything in it was over the top. I remember fighting of all things Kobolds who could hit my 18 dex fighter in +1 full plate 9 out of 10 times with arrows.

Yeah right, that is really by the rules.

Yes, and that too. I meant to underline that their levels and equipment aren't especially over-the-top. They are good, but not incredibly so. They + win mostly because the gods seem to be favoring them, and also because they don't fight like innately Chaotic Evil beings (who should fight ala "everyone on his own").

Then again, I've never bothered much with drow... what I know comes mostly from Black Isle games (where they did usually have +3 to +5 weapons and armor) and a couple of Drizzt books.

 

[Thanee]

Re: A comment

I admit, I am surprised by the responses to my posts, so far.

I'm not complaining, but I AM surprised.

In any case, in our campaign the Host of Menzoberranzan would have faced a colossal foe, one capable of giving them a real fight - with a 50/50 chance of holding Mithril Hall against the invaders.

So yeah, I am very surprised at the responses here. They run counter to all my experiences, and my observations of players dealing with a drow threat.

Of course, each to their own, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And I'm sure that things might have changed in 3rd edition, also.

But, at least in our campaign, and in my gaming history, the drow were a terror, both to my characters and to the characters of every player I knew.

So, I am very surprised at the comments here.

I think here lies a little misunderstanding...

Noone (mostly) argues the general point that the drow are a terror and a dangerous foe to face.

Everyone argues the specific example, that a 7th level drow patrol would make mincemeat out of a suitably prepared 12th level party.

Most argue, that the drow could win any open war they fought, as this is no typical course of action for them and the good aligned forces work together better to achieve their ultimate goal.

The drow army would never succeed against a combined host of all the powerful good aligned surface dwellers and their combined armies. The 50/50 chance you state up there for a resulting open war is just ridiculous, it would be more like 5/95, unless the drow had numerous powerful allies themselves. Note, that I do not count summoned outsiders here, as both sides will have this option and they would effectively cancel each others out, assuming, that the drow assault would not have ended already, when the reeinforcements arrive.

Your descriptions sound like you think the drow are undefeatable (in your campaign), preparing and planning ahead for anything their adversaries might throw into their way. So I ask you, why do the drow not rule the whole world then?

The drow are dangerous and cunning, but they are not a race, that easily usurps the whole continent with their military strength, because they are low in numbers (compared to other races, like the humans) and have less reliable allies to count on in times of need.

That's the nature of the evil, that they do not help each other unless there is something in for them as well!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Arravis]

Well, I don't mean for this to sound harsh... but I think this thread has become a waste of time. Clearly Edena's version of Drow is not the common version of Drow. I agree, it's simply like discussing my "home-brewed versions of Gully Dwarves that keep ancient red dragons as pets and use pit fiends to clean their teeth". It's someone's "vision" that has nothing in the slightest to do with what's written.

 

[Zappo]

I would not put too much faith in that game as a description of the drow. Everything in it was over the top. I remember fighting of all things Kobolds who could hit my 18 dex fighter in +1 full plate 9 out of 10 times with arrows.

Yeah right, that is really by the rules.

Aww, I remember them kobolds. That friggin' flame arrows did heaps of damage and apparently ignored armor. The same number of ogres or hill giants would have been a lesser challenge.

 

[Codragon]

Drow tactics

I think that just because Drow have "Chaotic" as part of their alignment doesn't mean they don't use tactics in combat. CE Drow can and should use intelligent tactics and organization in battle if need be (ie; battling goodly surface invaders).

Drow aren't going to rush into straight up into combat like berzerkers because they are Chaotic. They ARE going to watch each others' backs. They will play to their strengths: stealth, dirty fighting, ambushing, using greater numbers, etc. Self-preservation and defense of their homeland is something that any race will do regardless of alignment.

It's like this: A little Lawfulness now for the Greater Chaos later. Alll done in the name of evil, right?

 

[Arravis]

No one is mentioning that they should behave like beserkers. Come on people. But they ARE CE. That means no self-sacrifice. That means that the priestesses aren't very likely to buff anyone but themselves, and the spells they do cast will be for their own glory and power, same thing with the casters. They won't be casting "team" oriented spells. That also means that the other individuals in the group will likely be doing what either gets them the most power/prestige (which could include not partaking in the ambush and trying to defeat some of the target group individually, or killing perceived competitors within their own group during the fight). It'll mean a LESS efficient team. Selfishness doesn't make for a good team, period.