D&D 3E/3.5 The Real Question for 3e Grognards

[Pinotage]

There may be enough of a 3.5 market for a niche PDF publisher, but Paizo is a pretty substantial RPG company these days. Their customer base will shrink after 4e comes out. If they don't convert, they will lose many of their customers, even charter subscribers like me. The 15% discount they are offering to subscribers will not keep me as a customer once 4e comes out. I know that I will have no difficulty converting 3e scenarios to 4e. I convert GURPS, AD&D and Rolemaster scenarios to 3e.

In another thread Erik Mona recently posted that sales of their 3.5e line had not dropped off after the 4e announcement, while for other publishers it most certainly has. That proves to me that Paizo has a very special place in the d20 market. All I'm saying is that if they decide to stay with 3.5e I have no doubt many people will stay with 3.5e because of it. We're not talking huge numbers here, but I reckon enough to keep them growing, as they've already shown with the 4e announcement not even making a dent in their sales.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

You said that Paizo was the company that could keep people away from 4e, which is what I was disputing primarily. Hell, White Wolf can't keep people away from D&D and 4e, as the second largest market-share holder in the industry. Paizo being an order of magnitude smaller than White Wolf in terms of company size, market penetration (multiple markets, since they also produce board games and card games), and all that tells me that only an act of God can make them have a real effect on 4e.

Well, as mentioned above, the 4e announcement has not made a dent in their sales of products, and I bet they're the only company that can say that. That means despite 4e looming, people are still investing in their 3.5e products, implying they're more than willing to stick to 3.5e. Either way, I'm really curious to see what they decide in the old end when the GSL gets released.

Pinotage

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In another thread Erik Mona recently posted that sales of their 3.5e line had not dropped off after the 4e announcement, while for other publishers it most certainly has. That proves to me that Paizo has a very special place in the d20 market. All I'm saying is that if they decide to stay with 3.5e I have no doubt many people will stay with 3.5e because of it. We're not talking huge numbers here, but I reckon enough to keep them growing, as they've already shown with the 4e announcement not even making a dent in their sales.

Pinotage

Paizo is also producing the best suited products for this time, I think.

New rulebook at this time will hardly be usable after 4E hits the shelves (at least if you switch).

An adventure path can be used to finish ongoing campaigns, and if you really want to switch immediately, you can probably adapt the story and hooks of an adventure a lot easier then the crunch of a rules supplement. (and you probably need story a lot more the new rules crunch - you'd probably want to start 4E without adding new rules in the beginning, but to even start, you need an adventure hook!)

 

[Betote]

Believe it or not, but I actually think the atmosphere is switching for the better around these forums, now that more info is being released. Look back over some of the posts from mid-December to mid-January, and things were actually getting really bad;

Well, it's hard being angry for almost a whole year, after all

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I've gotten the impression that as a 3e holdout I'm unwelcome simply because I won't switch more than a few times. I believe Morrus that we'll always be welcome here, especially as Eric Noah isn't switching either. Still people have left the forums here over it and unless they come back after the uproar dies down EN World could end up largely abandoned by 3e DMs and players.

I haven't seen too many of your posts so my comments are in general rather that directed specifically at you. . .

The problem is not that 3E players are unwelcome. Its just that so many of them contribute nothing more to the conversation of 4E topics than "I don't like 4E" over and over again. Sometimes providing reasons, sometimes not.

Those comments are of zero value to the discussion. By and large, people don't know you (again not you specifically) and frankly don't care one whit whether you like it or not. All they want to do is come here and discuss 4E, not listen to people complain, talk about how stupid the designers are, talk about how evil WotC is or make statements about how they're giving up D&D altogether or whatever. Nobody's who is excited about 4E really cares to hear those same things over and over again from the people who aren't. Consequently, when those people keep saying them over and over again, it is they who make themselves unwelcome. That's pretty much what happens in any social situation when somebody keeps interrupting the conversation with irrelevant remarks people don't care about.

Not like there are many 2e holdouts around these parts. Which leaves the question of what place does 3e have on the net? EN World has been the home of 3e on the net, but that could change.

I think EnWorld is the home of D&D on the net. . . generally that means the current edition. I'm sure there will be some forums for discussion of 3E for a while. . . but generally I expect those folks will move on to more niche web locations that cater to previous edition fans.

 

[Jack99]

There won't be much of a need for a 3E Forum as new 3E supplements won't be coming out.

I think that is a very odd attitude to have. EnWorld should be (is) a place were all players of DND come to talk about rules, fluff and the color of Le Rouse's skirt shirt, regardless of which edition(s) they chose to play.

Cheers.

 

[Jack99]

In another thread Erik Mona recently posted that sales of their 3.5e line had not dropped off after the 4e announcement, while for other publishers it most certainly has. That proves to me that Paizo has a very special place in the d20 market. All I'm saying is that if they decide to stay with 3.5e I have no doubt many people will stay with 3.5e because of it. We're not talking huge numbers here, but I reckon enough to keep them growing, as they've already shown with the 4e announcement not even making a dent in their sales.

Pinotage

I have continued to support Paizo (PF and GM subscriptions, and random purchases on top) since 4e was announced, even though I know that I will switch. I do this for two different reasons.
1) Paizo's adventures/AP's are good, and even though I will never play with with 3.5 rules, inspiration is always great.
2) I wish to support Paizo, to make sure they will continue making these great adventures, for 4e.

This means that come august, if Paizo hasn't switched, I am pulling my money out.

Point is, not everyone, who is still buying Paizo, plans to stick with them if they don't switch to 4e. Of course, I could be the only one.... /shrug

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I think that is a very odd attitude to have. EnWorld should be (is) a place were all players of DND come to talk about rules, fluff and the color of Le Rouse's skirt shirt, regardless of which edition(s) they chose to play.

Cheers.

And that's exactly the attitude missing in a lot of people, and which would make chatting here a lot nicer and friendlier. And not just here...Dragonsfoot could use a dose of tolerance as well. Actually, I believe most RPGers could use a shot of that now and then, me included, but that's a different can of worms.

So lets simply imagine that all editions of D&D can provide some material for discussions, and that we can learn from each other's experience regardless of tables, ThAC0 or BAB.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

I have continued to support Paizo (PF and GM subscriptions, and random purchases on top) since 4e was announced, even though I know that I will switch. I do this for two different reasons.
1) Paizo's adventures/AP's are good, and even though I will never play with with 3.5 rules, inspiration is always great.
2) I wish to support Paizo, to make sure they will continue making these great adventures, for 4e.

This means that come august, if Paizo hasn't switched, I am pulling my money out.

Point is, not everyone, who is still buying Paizo, plans to stick with them if they don't switch to 4e. Of course, I could be the only one.... /shrug

Nope, you're not. I'm not paying people to make product I can't use, and while 3E-4E conversions aren't going to be impossible, neither am I planning around them being trivial. Once 4E comes out, I'm planning to slowly winnow my 3E books out of my active bookshelf and put them away.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Now that we're out of print and being passed over do we get a forum on Dragonsfoot too? It's been a while since I stopped by Dragonsfoot, but with the looming obsolescence of my preferred version I braved the flaming pit. I mean those of us not going to 4e will probably end up being pushed out of EN World by the overwhelming proliferation of 4e. So finding a new home would be nice.

Unfortunately the suggestion was met with pitchforks and torches. (Wasn't that exactly what I expected.) I've seen people on the boards here complain about the 4e arguments, nothing. I swear I halfway expected to see the disembodied hands of nerd rage reach through my monitor screen and strangle me to death after gouging out my eyes and feeding them to me!

So the question is where do we go, we homeless wanderers of the universally hated edition. Cultists of the Elder Iterations will not allow us refuge in their holy sanctums. And the unfaithful who have passed on to flashier new devotions won't be seen with us. Do we not need a homeland of our own, a domain to preserve the sacred lore of 3e? Shall we wander in the electron deserts for 40 years before out deliverance, and will any of us be alive to see the promised land?

Sorry, I know it's a long quote and a short (off-topic)response, but as a teacher of writing, I think that HSB deserves proper credit for the poetic flair of his post. Thanks, HSB: sadly, ENWorld is sometimes my bastion of literary talent, my point of light, in a world of drearily pedestrian darkness. The effort you have put forth in choosing your words has brightened my day.