D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

A demigod who ascends is still the child of a god and a mortal and so fits the 5e DMG definition of a demigod. A demigod who ascends is now a full god who has domains and grants cleric spells and not a quasi-deity who does not grant cleric spells.

Two different ways to read the same text about demigods as being mixed divine mortal heritage beings who are not gods but can ascend and be gods.

He isn't a demigod any longer, though. The way the DMG is written, the power level of demigod is for those scions of mortals and gods that remain at that level. When promoted the parentage doesn't change, but he's no longer a demigod. He has ascended to full god.

 

[Lyxen]

If the DM chooses to promote him, sure. If the DM chooses to go with him as a demigod per the DMG, then Iuz simply renains a quasi-deity in Appendix B that can't grant anything at all.

"A Dungeon Master adjudicates the game and determines whether to use an official ruling in play. The DM always has the final say on rules
questions." This is, more than anything, a background question. If a DM chooses to go with him as a demigod, he might or might not be a quasi-deity, and he might very well grant spells if it is what the DM wishes.

 

[Maxperson]

"A Dungeon Master adjudicates the game and determines whether to use an official ruling in play. The DM always has the final say on rules
questions." This is, more than anything, a background question. If a DM chooses to go with him as a demigod, he might or might not be a quasi-deity, and he might very well grant spells if it is what the DM wishes.

Irrelevant to discussions of RAW. Yes, the DM can change literally anything he wants. So what.

 

[Lyxen]

Irrelevant to discussions of RAW. Yes, the DM can change literally anything he wants. So what.

How is this a discussion of RAW ? We are talking about the role and purpose of Evil Gods. Why do you want to bring RAW into this ? And what you are posing as RAW is a simple sidebar that starts with "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power". How is that even a rule ?

 

[Maxperson]

How is this a discussion of RAW ? We are talking about the role and purpose of Evil Gods. Why do you want to bring RAW into this ? And what you are posing as RAW is a simple sidebar that starts with "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power". How is that even a rule ?

You might want to make sure that you are following the discussion before you interject yourself. This hasn't been about the role for many pages now.

 

[Voadam]

How is this a discussion of RAW ? We are talking about the role and purpose of Evil Gods. Why do you want to bring RAW into this ? And what you are posing as RAW is a simple sidebar that starts with "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power". How is that even a rule ?

Part of it is a discussion of what are gods and fiend lords in D&D, which has had different takes throughout D&D's editions and worlds which at various points were rules or baselines and at points were unspecified but with textual indications. So thus we have had discussions about whether and at what points Lolth was and was not considered a goddess under D&D rules.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The DMG explicitly says Iuz is a demigod.

Anyone else? Also, Iuz has long granted spells, and has domains listed in the PHB that he grant's access to. So... was it a copy and paste from older lore that didn't check the new defintions. Or were they just giggling as they make people incredibly confused by either retconning the entire setting or listing Iuz as multiple different things?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Iuz as a 5e Demigod can fit into the definitions of 5e demigods, but it is some work.

5e Demigods can ascend and become full gods. If you consider Grazz't a god in 5e then Iuz is a demigod under the Quasi-deity sidebar definition and he can ascend to full god status who grants spells to clerics. In GH lore that is my understanding of what Iuz did, coming into older edition demigod deity power with his own clerics.

In 5e this would put him as an ascended Lesser God Demigod, similar to Greek Heracles and Dionysus, while most 5e demigods are mortal bigger than life heroic people like Theseus and Perseus and are classified as quasi-deities who do not hear prayers.

Zagyg however would require additions to his story to be called a 5e demigod as there is no indication that he comes from divine parents, he just did a big magic ritual to ascend to become a god.

Grazz't brings us back to the demons and evil gods split.

5e in the DMG makes the distinction of gods who grant cleric spells and non-gods (quasi-deities) who do not.

The 5e MM is not entirely clear on the status of things like demon lords. Page 51: "The chaotic power of the Abyss rewards demons of particular ruthlessness and ingenuity with a dark blessing, transforming them into unique fiends whose power can rival the gods." The phrasing can rival the gods implies they are not gods themselves, but does not say so explicitly.

Lolth in the 5e MM is described as a goddess who became a demon lord. It does not specify whether she is no longer a goddess or whether she grants spells to clerics, but it does call her the matron of drow and refers to her priestesses, her faithful, and her followers.

The 5e DMG page 12 mentions fiends as non-deity lesser spirits who might grant spells under a certain number of "if" conditions.

"If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don't, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren't deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."

This seems like the DMG laying down options and not establishing a D&D baseline. Alternatively this could be read as consistent with a baseline that all lesser spirits can grant cleric spells in D&D or that only under these specified conditions can non-deity lesser spirits grant cleric spells and go against the baseline that such non-deities cannot grant clerics spells.

5e seems ambiguous on the status of fiend lords.

Ah, good point. I did not consider, and shall refer @Maxperson to this, that he might be an ascended Demigod due to the worship of his empire. That would make more sense.

Edit: And I should have read the next few pages to see that Max denies that Iuz is ascended, because then he would be labeled as a Lesser God, and the cycle starts right back over with the DMG information just confusing the issue.

 

[Maxperson]

Anyone else? Also, Iuz has long granted spells, and has domains listed in the PHB that he grant's access to. So... was it a copy and paste from older lore that didn't check the new defintions. Or were they just giggling as they make people incredibly confused by either retconning the entire setting or listing Iuz as multiple different things?

Occam's Razor. For you to be correct relies upon professional designers making not one, but two mistakes. For me to be correct requires what it says in print. The simplest explanation is that Iuz is a demigod.

Edit: Not two mistakes, but now three mistakes in three separate books.

 

[Maxperson]

Ah, good point. I did not consider, and shall refer @Maxperson to this, that he might be an ascended Demigod due to the worship of his empire. That would make more sense.

There is no such classification as Demigod lesser god. It doesn't exist. By RAW, Iuz is only a demigod. You have to fabricate a completely new classification for god in order for that to be correct.