D&D 5E The Soul of the Sorcerer

[Sunseeker]

Here's my question.
Should the sorcerer only get spells from its bloodlines, get any spell with no favoritism, or get any spell but only the bloodline ones are stronger?

Bloodline spells should be special. Something the sorcerer can do thanks to his innate connection to a certain type of magic that noone else can do. Sorcerers should also get a selection of "normal" spells, since mechanically it's simple to say an elemental-blooded sorcerer may fire out how to shoot Firebolt before he figures out how to become the Human Torch.

 

[MoonSong]

First they tried to fold the sorcerer, warlock, and artificer into the wizard during the playtest.
The community reacted very negatively.
Then there was the playtest sorcerer that turned into a fighter when its spells ran out.
The community reacted very negatively. Many thought the idea was cool but not for the sorcerer.

And innovation was stifled in 5th edition. After all the backlash, the designers quit trying to add big changes and opted for little one and variant. Then the wizard favoritism took hold.
[snip]
Just look at it. For all the desire for the sorcerer to be different, being a variant wizard is winning followed by thematic shooter of spells.

I don't think many sorcerer fans think the same as you when we voted "natural wizard" (I voted as in "should have the same potential and kind of effects as the wizard"), maybe it should have its own poll.

But you told the story backwards, the sorcerer was there first, and the welcome was warm, with a lot of caution because it didn't allow for conversion of previous PCs, but the transformation effects were confined to the subclass and a different one would have helped more. I think that another try with two more subclasses would have satisfied sorcerer players, and led to a good sorcerer with at least three feedback cycles -the current one had 0 of those-.

The problem was that it was a little over the top, maybe too much for traditionalists -full caster with martial weapons and heavy armor!-, almost like trolling. Then all wizard players started making an uproar and demanding "more toys now" without having to lower themselves to use an "inferior" class. Then Mearls and Co decided to make the wizard eat them all, and wasted their time with that, and then there was an uproar.

I like the idea that the Sorcerer has a natural connection to magic. Where the Wizard has learned the code-words to unlock the tools to shaping reality, the Sorcerer has an innate connection to the magical energy surrounding them. Maybe it's from simple luck of the draw, maybe it's from genetics. I like to conceptualize the Sorcerer similar to the "spark" of a Planeswalker from MTG. Some people have it, some people don't. I do think that the Sorcerer has a theme, I don't think that theme should be limited "blaster" but I do think they should be limited to a particular theme, like the Eldritch Knight is limited to a theam that makes him more of a war caster with an array of offensive spells instead of utility.

I think this could be filled in through the bloodlines. Fey bloodlines could be more about illusion and mind effects. Old One bloodlines could be about crazy stuff. I think there's a lot of room there, but it certainly takes up a LOT of writeup space.

I have one system for that, I tried to make an expression for 5e, but I haven't finished all spells needed. This was an idea I had for a story, were witches -sorcerers- and their magic were divided on five different types.

Affinity.- Have a connection with an element -a thing- you can control it, shape it, summon it, etc. It can be from the classical Fire and Ice, to more mundane things like clothing.
Manipulation.- Controlling physical things and objects -but also animals and people like puppets.
Creation.- Being able to use magic to creates things of any kind|.
Alteration.- Being able to transform things, and to change their properties.
Dreaming.- Things like emotions, share dreams, illusions, enter into minds, etc. In other words control of non-physical things.

Each witch belongs to one category, they can use magic from that category at their full potential, they can use magic from other categories, but it is harder the more different it is, for example creators have problems manipulating things and viceversa. Witches with an affinity have the least potential to use any kind of magic different from their own, even to use their magic on something they aren't attuned to, but they have a way easier time doing it, so they are the most common kind of witch. So they as a whole have an unlimited potential to do anything, but each individual one has a theme.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Just look at it. For all the desire for the sorcerer to be different, being a variant wizard is winning followed by thematic shooter of spells.

I wouldn't necessarily see that as evidence of people imagining that the sorcerer is "just a variant wizard." I mean, a wizard can be a "thematic blaster," too. I think your category definitions might lead to results that don't really show what the sorcerer is "about" to a lot of people.

First they tried to fold the sorcerer, warlock, and artificer into the wizard during the playtest.
The community reacted very negatively.
Then there was the playtest sorcerer that turned into a fighter when its spells ran out.
The community reacted very negatively. Many thought the idea was cool but not for the sorcerer.

This points to the idea that sorcerers are not (1) wizards or (2) caster/fighters; the distinction between sorcerers and wizards is important for many fans, as is their primary reliance on spells.

And innovation was stifled in 5th edition. After all the backlash, the designers quit trying to add big changes and opted for little one and variant. Then the wizard favoritism took hold.

The nature of doing new things is that 90% of what you try fails. It's hard (expensive, time-consuming) to do new things. And the 5e sorcerer does a few new things! They are smaller and more evolutionary than revolutionary, but there's new innovations in there.

 

[Minigiant]

Bloodline spells should be special. Something the sorcerer can do thanks to his innate connection to a certain type of magic that noone else can do. Sorcerers should also get a selection of "normal" spells, since mechanically it's simple to say an elemental-blooded sorcerer may fire out how to shoot Firebolt before he figures out how to become the Human Torch.

I'm not fully understanding you.
So a fire elemental sorcerer would know fire bolt, burning hands, and fireball as well a "flame armor".

But would the fire elemental sorcerer or red dragon sorcerer get ice storm since it is opposite to the bloodline?
What about acid arrow or haste as they aren't opposite but not part of the bloodline?

I don't think many sorcerer fans think the same as you when we voted "natural wizard" (I voted as in "should have the same potential and kind of effects as the wizard"), maybe it should have its own poll.

But you told the story backwards, the sorcerer was there first, and the welcome was warm, with a lot of caution because it didn't allow for conversion of previous PCs, but the transformation effects were confined to the subclass and a different one would have helped more. I think that another try with two more subclasses would have satisfied sorcerer players, and led to a good sorcerer with at least three feedback cycles -the current one had 0 of those-.

The problem was that it was a little over the top, maybe too much for traditionalists -full caster with martial weapons and heavy armor!-, almost like trolling. Then all wizard players started making an uproar and demanding "more toys now" without having to lower themselves to use an "inferior" class. Then Mearls and Co decided to make the wizard eat them all, and wasted their time with that, and then there was an uproar.

My point was many of the "WOTC missed the opportunity" posts in this topic are over the top. None would have made past the playtest.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm not fully understanding you.
So a fire elemental sorcerer would know fire bolt, burning hands, and fireball as well a "flame armor".

But would the fire elemental sorcerer or red dragon sorcerer get ice storm since it is opposite to the bloodline?
What about acid arrow or haste as they aren't opposite but not part of the bloodline?

I would say that they would get fire-related spells as part of their Bloodline, much like how Clerics get select spells from their domain. These spells could be cast similar to Ki, without some components. They would they get the option to take a very limited number of spells from outside their bloodline. So, yes they could have a couple ice spells, but it'd be something like a 1/5 ratio of non-bloodline to bloodline spells.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I don't recall seeing "Bene Gesserit" in the Sorcerer section of the PHB, so there is no reason to suppose that a sorcerer PC would know that "grandma slept with a lizard." This seems like a role playing issue rather than a justification for a new subclass.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Bloodline spells should be special. Something the sorcerer can do thanks to his innate connection to a certain type of magic that noone else can do. Sorcerers should also get a selection of "normal" spells, since mechanically it's simple to say an elemental-blooded sorcerer may fire out how to shoot Firebolt before he figures out how to become the Human Torch.

Shidaku said it first!

I was going to say, innate is the only word that makes sense for describing what sorcerers do: their magic powers are an intrinsic part of them, rather than being learned in a laboratory or whatever, the way wizards do it.

 

[EvanNave55]

I agree with several of the above posters that a sorcerer's main thing is their magic is innate. Their magic is a part of them, like having a right arm is a part of you, it's a natural extension/part of themselves. I was a big of sorcerers knowing fewer spells but being able to cast those spells freely and more often, where as wizards could have potentially all spells but can. Cast as many and they have to prepare them ahead of time. I also think sorcerers and wizards should share the same spell list, with possible exceptions for spells linked to those magic source (read below). The whole spontaneous vs. prepared was big for me that's a big reason on why I probably won't play a 5e sorcerer, despite sorcerer being my longest and most frequently played class in other versions. I also like the idea of them having a theme related to their source of magic. The spontaneous more frequent, less flexible is bigger, and more important to me but I also like the idea of sorcerers getting their magic from a dragon/elemental/other in their family tree, blessing, etc. So for a sorcerer whose source is related to fire they would automatically gain some fire related spells for free like a clerics bonus domain spells if I remember correctly, and possibly some smaller benefits to any spell they cast related to their source such as any fire spells do +1 damage per die, though the bonus spells known would be the main boost.
The whole feel for sorcerers vs. Wizards for me is definitely wizards = long years of study and expirementation with a large variety of spells. Sorcerer= naturally gifted with magic its a core part of who they are, with casting any spells known any time and with more frequency but they don't know how to cast as many spells. Wizards are you the (possibly mad) people locked away in a tower researching and expirementing, jealousy guarding their knowledge whereas sorcerers are those whose power is already inside them and naturally grows as they do, though when first discovering this power unless they practice (in a preferably safe distant place) or are taught how to control this they can be a danger to those around them as they might unmingfully blast someone as they wave hello.


Sorry about the long post and all the repetition, just really emphatic, and emphasizing the core of what a sorcerer is to me, and how that differs from the wizard.