Yes but a one or two level dip can be done at pretty much any level except first level because then it wouldn't be multiclassing simply because the character has only one level to their name. Questioning how a multiclassed character could get platemail at level 1 seems odd given the context of how post #17 raised it or the rest of the post #16 "/here's how it happens" example scenario it spun from.
Rather than accusing me of "serious problems" attempting to convey what I actually mean... Can you first explain how "How is Chuck getting all this at level 1?" is relevant to the scenario it was responding to? multiclass dips being too good are a problem because a player of any level can use them to gain huge benefits beyond what a single one or two levels should grant when taken in combination with levels in another class that makes up the bulk of a character's levels as the term "dip" generally implies.
So, I can weigh in on this, because I saw it happen quite a few times when I played in AL. New players would come in, get handed a precon, or be walked through the character creation process, and feel pretty good about their characters.
Then play alongside the experienced players, with their strange, optimized builds that spat out better numbers, and seemed not only stronger, but way more fun, because they were doing more.
And the next time you saw those new players, they would have completely new characters, and they treated their original ones like "old shames".
D&D has always had choices that are better than others, that's just how the game was made. The game creates the illusion that you can create whatever kind of character you desire, but some characters just work better than others in some games.
The guy who plays a Human Champion Fighter with 14 in all stats can be crazy fun to play with, and in a game where roleplaying and having fun is more important, you'd never notice anything wrong with him.
But he'd be woefully out of place in other games, where the challenge is high, the rules are set to "maximum grit", and you better be optimized as heck or you're going to be overwhelmed.
Public play has this interesting problem in that, unlike a home game, where you can express to everyone what the style of game and what an appropriate power level is at your Session Zero, basically anyone can belly up to a table with whatever character they want to play, and bring their own expectations.
So, I can weigh in on this, because I saw it happen quite a few times when I played in AL. New players would come in, get handed a precon, or be walked through the character creation process, and feel pretty good about their characters.
Then play alongside the experienced players, with their strange, optimized builds that spat out better numbers, and seemed not only stronger, but way more fun, because they were doing more.
And the next time you saw those new players, they would have completely new characters, and they treated their original ones like "old shames".
D&D has always had choices that are better than others, that's just how the game was made. The game creates the illusion that you can create whatever kind of character you desire, but some characters just work better than others in some games.
The guy who plays a Human Champion Fighter with 14 in all stats can be crazy fun to play with, and in a game where roleplaying and having fun is more important, you'd never notice anything wrong with him.
But he'd be woefully out of place in other games, where the challenge is high, the rules are set to "maximum grit", and you better be optimized as heck or you're going to be overwhelmed.
Public play has this interesting problem in that, unlike a home game, where you can express to everyone what the style of game and what an appropriate power level is at your Session Zero, basically anyone can belly up to a table with whatever character they want to play, and bring their own expectations.
I used to see it pretty often woth AL too & a lot of us would get suspected of "those guys sabotaged my first PC, that's why I want to move to your table" type things. It wouldn't be as bad if the new player could get told or say things like "welllll.... my proficiency bonus is higher & he does need a crapton more exp" with a reworked MC mechanic to feel good about their own choice but the downsides of multiclassing as is are almost purely theoretical & hard to see with any regularity even when they are noteworthy.
In one of the recent videos Crawford mentioned that they were moving the cleric subclass choice back because it was too rewarding as a dip & that they want to incentivize players to have a little more skin in a class than just 1-2 level dips that are so good players feel like they are harmed by not taking them*. With one version for four of twelve core classes & 4 of 48 total subclasses I think so far that goal is falling pretty far shy of the mark Crawford described to the point that people are even making videos about it.
So here's what each class gives with a 1 level dip & how that expands beyond tier1.
L1:armor training: Light Armor.
We don't yet have the new equipment details causing this to be a bit uncertain in value but we can make some assumptions. If someone is going to dip another class for armor proficiency light armor is probably not going to be the goal
L1:One skill from the bard list & one musical instrument proficiency.
We don't yet know what (if any) changes will be made to skills
Ltwo arcane cantrips [edit: they also get a level of spellcasting but that got left out initially by accident]
Currently we don't know if cantrips will continue to scale by character level or if there will be improvements like linking them to equipment. There are already a lot of ways to get cantrips though so this is probably just a garnish at best if we are thinking about the value with a dip
L1: Bardic inspiration": This is only a d6 but you have proficiency bonus uses & can use it as a reaction for guidance-type boosts or a reaction heal.
This is starting to look enticing as a feature that will improve the next 19 nonbard levels but probably not yet good enough to feel forced into this dip
L2: Songs of restoration: Healing word is always prepared & doesn't count against your prepared spells. Coupled with preparing three additional divination illusion enchantment or transmutation arcane spells you prepare without counting against your other 19 levels of caster prep & bardic inspiration this is starting to be a contender for a solid dip.
L2: Expertise: Choose any two of your skills to have expertise in.
Currently expertise is double proficiency & bounded accuracy is already destroyed by scaling proficiency bonuses alone even without expertise. This is a problem but perhaps not specifically a multiclass problem since rogue & ranger gets this at first.
There are some questionably dipworthy abilities but barring interaction with abilities from classes we do not yet have bard is probably not a class that's going to make nonbards feel forced to dip. Bard probably meets the goal Crawford laid out.
L1:One skill from the rogue list & thieve's tool proficiency
Again we don't know what (if any) changes we can expect to skills
armor training: Light Armor
We don't yet have the new equipment details causing this to be a bit uncertain in value but we can make some assumptions. If someone is going to dip another class for armor proficiency light armor is probably not going to be the goal
L1:Expertise in two of your skills
Currently expertise is double proficiency & bounded accuracy is already destrpyed by scaling proficiency bonuses alone even without expertise. This is a problem but perhaps not specifically a multiclass problem.
L1: Sneak attack: +1d6 on finesse & ranged weapon attacks1/round under some conditions.
The conditions are easy to meet. Even without knowing what weapons will look like sneak attack is probably not a prime reason to dip rogue1
L2" Cunning action
Nice but barring any secondary class feature interactions dipping 2 levels of rogue for cunning action is probably not too much pressure. Rogue probably meets the goal Crawford laid out/
Expertise is a big problem if bounded accuracy is a thing wotc intends to keep. Rogue is probably meeting the goal Crawford laid out though.
L1:armor training: light arnmor medium anmor & shields
It's hard to say how good this is but better than or equal to what 4 of the current 4 classes have
L1: Martial weapon proficiencies & 1 rangerskill of your choice
We don't yet have the new weapons but this may or may not be incentive to dip ranger or feel disadvantaged for not doing so.
L1:Expertise in two of your skills
Currently expertise is double proficiency & bounded accuracy is already destroyed by scaling proficiency bonuses alone even without expertise. It's also worth noting that this is expertise in two of your skills not two ranger skills since we are talking about excessive dip incentives. This is a problem but perhaps not specifically a multiclass problem.
L1: two non-evocation primal cantrips & preparing two non-evocation 1st level primal spells without counting against the prep slots for your other 19 levels of non-ranger caster prep.
L1:Favored enemy: You always have hunters mark prepared & can cast it without needing to maintain concentration...
Ruh-roh: It's entirely possible hunters mark will change in a way that solves this but I think that's a stretch. This is a pretty serious bit of dip candy for any classs that makes weapon attacks& the pressure grows the more attacks a PC makes each round. We don't know what the non-light weapons will ultimately look like but this is already starting to singlehandedly pull an already questionable dip in ways that are looking like it significantly misses the mark for that goal Crawford laid out.
2nd:a fighting style
It's hard to say how much more valuable this is & if this with 12/18 will be more valuable than 1/19 without knowing more classes & specifics. This is probably not a concern for dip overvalue, but ranger is already looking very sorlocky just from a one level dip.
We don't yet have enough details from the other weapon using classes to talk degrees or anything but the ranger almost certainly looking like it falls quite a bit short of the goal Crawford described
1st:Armor training: Light armor medium armor & shields
It's hard to say how good this is but better than or equal to what 4 of the current 4 classes have..
1st:No skills
Probably a good thing we should see more of.
1st:Channel Divinity: This is a heal or nuke that scales based with both proficiency bonus uses in addition to proficiency bonus number of dice
This is an anility that misses that goal by an extreme degree. Any wisdom based class is going to be feeling some pressure & it could be good enough that even non-wisdom based classes start feeling pressure
1st: three divine cantrips: Guidance, Resistance, 1 other...
these are extremely solid additions that a character can bring to the group on top of the already bad Channel Divinity pressure.
1st: Two forst level divine prep slots
Again very solid additions to any caster (divine or not)
2nd: Holy Order: Choice between A: Martial weapon proficiency & heavy armor proficiency, B: proficiency in two skills from arcana history nature persuasion & religion and you add your wisdom mod to it on top of whatever you normally add, C: an extra divine cantrip and you regain one of those proficiency bonus/long rest proficiency bonus(d8) channel divinity uses when you take a short rest....
A is pretty awesome on top of everything else. Even now it's common for characters to dip cleric just to get heavy armor proficiency
B is freaking amazing for a face character & further exposes how bad bounded accuracy is by making the best face character a bard X/cleric 2 leaps & bounds beyond anything else.
C is something that makes an already overly desirable dip pressuring ability even better and
3rd: subclass features. Currently this is disciple of life & domain spells
Those are very good but maybe not woirth going further as a dip yet. Other cleric subtypes could add very desirable things for some classes to take
cleric misses the goal Crawford described by miles to the point where it's reasonable to wonder just how much wotc is interested in meeting that goal.
There are definitely some serious problems with the goal that was described already & some of them need direct changes while others could be minimized by going back to 3.x style spell slots for different classes being separate rather than combining. Going to point by point or choose N skills from this class when awarded to be proficient with every so often while leveling with the number of times a skill is chosen times proficiency bonus being how much it adds to the d20**. Both of those & some form of dual classing with a 2.5-3x exp need multiplier (or even just the multiplier) would likewise help. [edit: going back to 3.5 style knowledge skills & divisions of them could help some areas too]
* I'm doing some paraphrasing from memory & treantmonk includes the direct quote snippet in his video so good enough.
** redo the target DCs to fit
Yeah, if one of their goals is to avoid dips, they're going about it in exactly the wrong way. Making it more mechanically beneficial does not somehow make it less mechanically beneficial.
Taking the Heavy Armor option out of the subclass and moving it two a second level option really eliminates the 1-level Cleric dip issues. I don't think the subclass options other than heavy armor were a big deal.
Ironically, Cleric was the only way to get Heavy Armor proficiency on a 1-level dip in 5E.
Also moving turn undead to 1st level makes this a more powerful dip than most of the subclass options would have been (heavy armor notwithstanding).
Personally, I don't see a 1-level dip as a big problem, for all the handwringing over Hexadins, when you get down to it those I have seen played were not really powerful or unbalanced in play.
The actual multiclass options I have found most stressing are Wizards or Sorcerers with a 1-level cleric dip which gets them the heavy armor and cantrips without losing any spell slots, but those classes were already powerful without the dip anyway.
I multiclass almost all the time. I think I have only played 1 single class character in 5E (a bladesinger wizard), and I have even triple classed once (Arcane Trickster/Arcane Archer/Shadow Sorcerer) but at most of the tables I play a majority of the players don't multiclass at all so I disagree with the premise that there is a "must take" multiclass.
One other thing I would change on cleric is I would take away light and medium armor proficiency on a multiclass dip.
On someone that starts cleric they should be there, but I think with a full caster those are not needed on a multiclass and are not central enough to the cleric theme to make them part of the multiclass as a clothy, aesthetic-type cleric is still on point thematically.
Similarly, I would take away armor proficiency on Warlock or Rogue dips.
I would keep light and medium on a Paladin and Ranger multiclass. I would probably put all 3 on a fighter multiclass (light, medium and heavy), since a Fighter is supposed to be a master of weapons and armor.
Taking the Heavy Armor option out of the subclass and moving it two a second level option really eliminates the 1-level Cleric dip issues. I don't think the subclass options other than heavy armor were a big deal.
Ironically, Cleric was the only way to get Heavy Armor proficiency on a 1-level dip in 5E.
Also moving turn undead to 1st level makes this a more powerful dip than most of the subclass options would have been (heavy armor notwithstanding).
Personally, I don't see a 1-level dip as a big problem, for all the handwringing over Hexadins, when you get down to it those I have seen played were not really powerful or unbalanced in play.
The actual multiclass options I have found most stressing are Wizards or Sorcerers with a 1-level cleric dip which gets them the heavy armor and cantrips without losing any spell slots, but those classes were already powerful without the dip anyway.
I multiclass almost all the time. I think I have only played 1 single class character in 5E (a bladesinger wizard), and I have even triple classed once (Arcane Trickster/Arcane Archer/Shadow Sorcerer) but at most of the tables I play a majority of the players don't multiclass at all so I disagree with the premise that there is a "must take" multiclass.
I just see Divine Spark as a very interesting ability for 1st level. It has a low cost to acquire in a long enough game, and it continues to pay dividends as it's usage per day and effect scale with proficiency bonus. It's 30 foot range is nothing to sneeze at either. Now, it does cost an action, and I'm sure most players will want to do anything on their turn but heal hit point damage, but as it's not a spell, it can also be combined with those two Healing Words you get for the dip as well.
One other thing I would change on cleric is I would take away light and medium armor proficiency on a multiclass dip.
On someone that starts cleric they should be there, but I think with a full caster those are not needed on a multiclass and are not central enough to the cleric theme to make them part of the multiclass as a clothy, aesthetic-type cleric is still on point thematically.
I just see Divine Spark as a very interesting ability for 1st level. It has a low cost to acquire in a long enough game, and it continues to pay dividends as it's usage per day and effect scale with proficiency bonus. It's 30 foot range is nothing to sneeze at either. Now, it does cost an action, and I'm sure most players will want to do anything on their turn but heal hit point damage, but as it's not a spell, it can also be combined with those two Healing Words you get for the dip as well.
For me the comparison with Bardic Inspiration shows that the balance struck has actually been quite thoughtful.
Bardic Inspiration: prof times/long rest. Use reaction to
either help an ally with a failed attack, save, or ability check (+1d6)
or heal 1d6 hp to an ally w/in 60'.
Divine Spark: prof times/long rest. Use action to
heal 2d8 hp to an ally w/in 30' (scaling up with prof bonus)
or do radiant damage 2d8 (scaling), save for half.
(the same pool also is used for Turning undead)
So for healing, both abilities can get a downed colleague on her feet again. DS has shorter range and takes an action, but heals more hp. For me, BI is more effective, but I see them as fundamentally balanced.
The damage option is not a good use of DS (unless you don't have an attack cantrip) but in the right campaign Turning undead can be a lifesaver, and it is fun.
The bard's opportunity to boost a save as a reaction, or an attack, or an ability check means that as a bard you can help your party to shine -- a colleague can make a killing blow, or avoid damage completely, or whatever. Plus, you get t see what the party member rolls before you use the ability, so even if you don't know the exact target number, you probably have an idea if they are close.
As I read it, both of these are comparable abilities. Measured just here, I think Bardic Inspiration would be more fun to play with, but I can totally see others weighting DS preferable. By itself, though, it's not broken.
You do get the spells from a dip -- you suggest Healing Word for the cleric, which is a spell Bards have access to at level 2.
(Disclaimer: I play Clerics regularly, and have never liked BI as a mechanism. On these abilities, I see what One is bringing as an improvement to both.)
I used to see it pretty often woth AL too & a lot of us would get suspected of "those guys sabotaged my first PC, that's why I want to move to your table" type things. It wouldn't be as bad if the new player could get told or say things like "welllll.... my proficiency bonus is higher & he does need a crapton more exp" with a reworked MC mechanic to feel good about their own choice but the downsides of multiclassing as is are almost purely theoretical & hard to see with any regularity even when they are noteworthy.
Nope. The downside is not theoretical.
The downside just does not show if people just build a character for a certain level.
So if you know what level and know that you can rebuild anytime, that is the problem. And even with your rules, there are levels, where the multiclass build is straight better and levels where it is worse. A +1 difference in PB does not make or break a character.
Also: please explain how it works exactly. I don't really get it.
two arcane cantrips [edit: they also get a level of spellcasting but that got left out initially by accident]
