D&D (2024) The state of Multiclass-Dips in One D&D

Horwath

Legend
I have a feeling that competence of 1st and 2nd level characters is being sacrificed on "altar of multiclass cheese", but devs are explaining that they are doing so new players are not "overwhelmed" by 1st level characters. Please...

If Multiclass dips are problem, then either ban multiclassing or ban dips.

How to ban dips?

1. you cannot multiclass before 5th character level
2. when you take levels in new class, you must take at least 4 levels in new class before raising levels in 1st class or another class. possible 3rd class has same limitation as 2nd class.


Some players would maybe enjoy playing 1st level characters for 3 or 4 sessions if they would have 5 or 6 abilities to choose between.
This will either force every non-1st time player to start at 3rd level or see 1st and 2nd level being leveled out in single session.
 

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Pauln6

Hero
I have a feeling that competence of 1st and 2nd level characters is being sacrificed on "altar of multiclass cheese", but devs are explaining that they are doing so new players are not "overwhelmed" by 1st level characters. Please...

If Multiclass dips are problem, then either ban multiclassing or ban dips.

How to ban dips?

1. you cannot multiclass before 5th character level
2. when you take levels in new class, you must take at least 4 levels in new class before raising levels in 1st class or another class. possible 3rd class has same limitation as 2nd class.


Some players would maybe enjoy playing 1st level characters for 3 or 4 sessions if they would have 5 or 6 abilities to choose between.
This will either force every non-1st time player to start at 3rd level or see 1st and 2nd level being leveled out in single session.
Some players like the notion of multiclassing simultaneously in two classes so restricting it to 5th level seems unnecessary, although there some 'multiclass light' feats that give a flavour that might be made available at level 1. The multiclass section does allow some customisation of class feature allocation at level 1 so this could be tightened. Another option might be to take problematic class features and delay them by siloing them in multiclass feats that you can only take with X number of levels in a class. If they are that awesome, power gamers will still want to take them with the feat tax. The multiclass section would just say at level X you do not gain Y class feature but you may take Z feat.
 

Horwath

Legend
Some players like the notion of multiclassing simultaneously in two classes so restricting it to 5th level seems unnecessary, although there some 'multiclass light' feats that give a flavour that might be made available at level 1. The multiclass section does allow some customisation of class feature allocation at level 1 so this could be tightened. Another option might be to take problematic class features and delay them by siloing them in multiclass feats that you can only take with X number of levels in a class. If they are that awesome, power gamers will still want to take them with the feat tax. The multiclass section would just say at level X you do not gain Y class feature but you may take Z feat.
Sure, 3rd option can be that you must always keep two classes(or more) within one level of each other. That is, 3rd level is then latest for multiclass.

problem with dips are not 2/3 class splits vs 5th level single class, it becomes with 1/2 level dips and higher level features. 2/9 can be lot more powerful than 11th single class, including 11th level feature. Or 2/11 as 13/14 level abilities are usually not that big.

having 5/6 multiclass vs 11th level could be nice power comparison.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
The more I see @tetrasodium points, and they are good, the more I see the design to frontload might be derived from the idea that people won't be playing to Tier 3 or Tier 4, and thus the [5e] rules are mostly designed for low-to-mid level play.
It's definitely a vibe that gets felt more & more strongly but that gets into a rant :whistle:... Ttrpgs usually split somewhat into some form of point buy structure or some form of class type structure & both have their benefits/drawbacks. Class based games avoid some of the learning curve & ease of abuse that are often present with pointbuy & it often comes with a bit of frontloading of classes. I don't think that front loaded classes simply existing are a problem that needs to be changed but frontloaded & overly front loaded classes that improve without equipment gating or class level gating in a system that makes it trivial to have multiple baskets of frontloaded features at minimal cost or investment is definitely an awful combo.
I have a feeling that competence of 1st and 2nd level characters is being sacrificed on "altar of multiclass cheese", but devs are explaining that they are doing so new players are not "overwhelmed" by 1st level characters. Please...

If Multiclass dips are problem, then either ban multiclassing or ban dips.

How to ban dips?

1. you cannot multiclass before 5th character level
2. when you take levels in new class, you must take at least 4 levels in new class before raising levels in 1st class or another class. possible 3rd class has same limitation as 2nd class.


Some players would maybe enjoy playing 1st level characters for 3 or 4 sessions if they would have 5 or 6 abilities to choose between.
This will either force every non-1st time player to start at 3rd level or see 1st and 2nd level being leveled out in single session.
I don't think those changes actually do much. All they really manage to do is ensure that multiclass sips tend to start at the levels where thebindip class has its full core toolkit so expanding the dip from one or two levels to four levels presents a near zero cost. A MC subsystem change needs to be fr more comprehensive than that deck chair moving head in the sand bandaid.
 

I have a feeling that competence of 1st and 2nd level characters is being sacrificed on "altar of multiclass cheese", but devs are explaining that they are doing so new players are not "overwhelmed" by 1st level characters. Please...

If Multiclass dips are problem, then either ban multiclassing or ban dips.

How to ban dips?

1. you cannot multiclass before 5th character level
2. when you take levels in new class, you must take at least 4 levels in new class before raising levels in 1st class or another class. possible 3rd class has same limitation as 2nd class.


Some players would maybe enjoy playing 1st level characters for 3 or 4 sessions if they would have 5 or 6 abilities to choose between.
This will either force every non-1st time player to start at 3rd level or see 1st and 2nd level being leveled out in single session.

Still a bad idea as the base option. Make it a different option: medium multiclass: you need to take the 4th level multiclass bard feat to take levels in the bard class. No new system needed.
 

Sure, 3rd option can be that you must always keep two classes(or more) within one level of each other. That is, 3rd level is then latest for multiclass.

problem with dips are not 2/3 class splits vs 5th level single class, it becomes with 1/2 level dips and higher level features. 2/9 can be lot more powerful than 11th single class, including 11th level feature. Or 2/11 as 13/14 level abilities are usually not that big.

having 5/6 multiclass vs 11th level could be nice power comparison.

Dips have their merit. If you really want to make staying in a class worthwhile, all level 11 features have to be looked at. The paladin or fighter level 11 features are not bad and quite costly to give up. Problem: now the level 13 feature must also be something you want. And then the level 15. So just make every 2nd level feature something you would want.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Some players like the notion of multiclassing simultaneously in two classes so restricting it to 5th level seems unnecessary
Some players also like getting 3 feats and full plate armor at 1st level. Players always want MOAR POWA.

At the end of the day you really have 3 options:
  • Continue to allow multiclass dipping to be an optimized path
  • Remove the front loaded of classes, which makes early levels a lot more boring.
  • Change multiclass in some fundamental way.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

Horwath

Legend
Still a bad idea as the base option. Make it a different option: medium multiclass: you need to take the 4th level multiclass bard feat to take levels in the bard class. No new system needed.
Multiclass feats:

Class initiate:
requires 4th level:
+1 ASI
gain 1st level features of chosen class. Do not gain saving throw proficiencies, gain one less armor proficiency, gain 1 skill if class stars with 3 skills or 2 skills if class starts with 4 skills. Gain any tool proficiencies. Gain martial weapons proficiencies

Class adept:
requires class initiate:
+1 ASI
gain 2nd and 3rd level features of class chosen by Class initiate

Class expert:
requires Class adept:
+1 ASI
gain 4th and 5th level class features of class chosen by Class adept. Do NOT gain 4th level ASI feature of 2nd class.

Class mastery:
Requires: Class expert
No +1 ASI here
gain 6th and 7th level class features of class chosen by Class expert.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Some players also like getting 3 feats and full plate armor at 1st level. Players always want MOAR POWA.

At the end of the day you really have 3 options:
  • Continue to allow multiclass dipping to be an optimized path
  • Remove the front loaded of classes, which makes early levels a lot more boring.
  • Change multiclass in some fundamental way.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The multiclass rules already detail the things you do and don't get at level 1. Adding a couple of extra restrictions for problematic class features awarded at level 1 or at higher levels would not require massive investment beyond a second page in the multiclass section. It might be that restricting certain class features that grant stackable features with uses based off your proficiency bonus could be changed to half your proficiency bonus for example.
 

Pedantic

Legend
Couldn't you reframe this as a problem with higher level class features? If level 1-2 abilities are more compelling and interesting than level 8-10 ones, then why shouldn't players prefer them? That feels more like you really need better mid-high level class abilities.

The only real stand out abilities (barring the coffeelock stuff that's mostly just poorly written short rest mechanics in the warlock than anything) are things like paladin smite that live outside the action economy. You could just move those back in (maybe introduce a 4th action type, like 3e's swift or 4e's minor actions) to give them a real cost.
 

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