The Surprise round anomally

[Dausuul]

Currently if your knock your target prone or daze him, you can shift one square away and he can not attack you in melee in any way.

Daze, yes. Knock prone, no. If the target doesn't mind staying prone (with all attendant penalties), he can crawl one square toward you and then attack from prone.

But if you're behind the big rock in question, you won't have line of sight to utilize these options, so you need to move out to gain that and surprise round is over.

That's why you should be hiding someplace where you have line of sight to the enemy. Of course, that means the enemy has a chance to spot your ambush with passive Perception, but that's the risk you take to get that first round of attacks in. You can have an ambush that can't be detected in advance, but doesn't give you a surprise round; or you can have an ambush that grants a surprise round, but can be detected in advance.

 

[Starfox]

With the lack of iterative attacks, how much would it break the game to remove the one action limit on the surprise round?

My group has always complained that the surprise round (in both 3.x and what we've played of 4E) is essentially useless (unless you get to go first in the non-surprise round). It's lead to a lot of cases of "You surprise the enemy! Now you can either move up to him and take a full attack when he goes, or wait for him to come to you!"

I can see in 3E the need for a standard or move restriction, but not so much for 4E. What do you all think?

I'm with you - and I'll rule-zero the action limits in surprise rounds. But that's the play style of my group - it might not work for everyone.

 

[Najo]

What about removing the surprise round entirely and then when someone is surprised, they have a limited action (1 standard action, free actions and no action points), can't flank and grant combat advantage. The rest of the attackers act normal. That way, individuals are surprised as a condition, there is no surprise round and you get rid of the whole artificial feeling while still having the same effect.

 

[Psikus]

What about removing the surprise round entirely and then when someone is surprised, they have a limited action (1 standard action, free actions and no action points), can't flank and grant combat advantage.

Or you could just say they are dazed until the start of their next turn.

I'm really liking this idea. It's not as awkward as the current surprise round, nor as lethal as a surprise round without limit of actions (which I tried in the kobold ambush in KOTS and found a bit too effective).

 

[fba827]

What about removing the surprise round entirely and then when someone is surprised, they have a limited action (1 standard action, free actions and no action points), can't flank and grant combat advantage. The rest of the attackers act normal. That way, individuals are surprised as a condition, there is no surprise round and you get rid of the whole artificial feeling while still having the same effect.

That sounds rather clean. I like it!

(Note: surprised already is a condition, but what you're proposing means editing the second effect of the condition to include "...and can take 1 standard action"; and then also removing the surprise round itself)

Or you could just say they are dazed until the start of their next turn.

Heh, that works too!

 

[Syrsuro]

The solution to the original problem (ignoring other issues with surprise rounds) is to revive a version of the 3.x charge/surprise special case:

3.x rule: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or a move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round).

4E houserule: If you are able to take a standard action on your turn, but are unable to take any other action (such as during a surprise round) you can still charge, even if the distance would be less than 2 squares. Charging less than two squares allows an attack, but confers no benefit to the attack roll or bullrush.

Although the simplest fix (which I prefer, although it would weaken prone and daze) is to simply errata the section on Charge: Movement Requirements to read: "To gain the bonus to the attack roll you must move at least 2 squares from your starting position...."

After all - it seems to me that the prone target that jumps up and back into the fray is an iconic image from all forms of media. That they somehow - despite being only five feet away - are prevented from jumping up and attacking seems unlikely.

Carl

 

[KarinsDad]

A surprise round should be beneficial to the ambusher(s). So, I've always given the ambusher(s) a full round of actions in 3.5 and intend to do so in 4e.

One should be careful with this in 4E.

Monster initiative in 4E is a LOT higher than in 3.5

The vast majority of monsters have high Dex in 4E. Plus, many monsters get either +2 or +4 added to their initiative on top of that. Plus, PCs often fight monsters higher level than themselves, so that's often an addition +1 or +2 for the monsters.

The average monster has a higher initiative than the average PC, even knowing that PCs can take Quick Draw or Improved Initiative.

Implementing your house rule could end up with many of the monsters in a given encounter getting two full rounds of attacks before most or any of the PCs get one. Food for thought.

 

[Skyscraper]

You realize that this thread is about a corner case that i've never seen happen in 3E, namely: that a creature is precisely 1 square away from a PC at the beginning of a surprise round?

Reminder: a surprise round occurs when one party has knowledge of the other, but not the other way around. So the orc is 1 square away from the PC but the PC is unaware of the orc.

And you want to houserule because of this? You're likely to have a binderfull of houserules by the time you're done reading the entire ruleset...

This being said, i ask again: why did the orc "jump out" of the bushes 1 square away from the PCs? Why not charge the PC from the bushes?

Also, to the poster(s?) who said that "jumping out" should not count as the surprise round action, you're wrong. Refer to the definition of a surprise round. Once the orcs leave the bushes, the PCs are aware of the orcs. If they have not charged and simply moved out, that was their suprise round action. It's their fault for having decided on the wrong action (move, as opposed to charge). Remember that charging during a surprise round allows you to move twice your speed and attack. If a single move leaves you one square short of the PC, charging would automatically allow you to reach said PC. So this alleged "problem" with the rules does not exist unless the orc willingly decides to make a non-sensical move instead of a charge.

Sky

 

[Audrik]

The average monster has a higher initiative than the average PC, even knowing that PCs can take Quick Draw or Improved Initiative.

Implementing your house rule could end up with many of the monsters in a given encounter getting two full rounds of attacks before most or any of the PCs get one. Food for thought.

Not implementing that house rule could end up with many of the PCs getting one full round of attacks before the (ambushing) monsters get one. Food for thought? Yes, and I thank you. It didn't go down as smoothly as I'd have liked, but all the same ... consider it digested.

It seems to me that many of the posters in this thread have never been ambushed in real life.

I first started playing D&D about two months before 2e came out. I never ran my own 1e game, but when 2e came out, I immediately started. This is how I've ALWAYS run surprise because it's the only way that makes sense to me:

Orcs are hidden, PCs are unaware
--
Orcs jump out, PCs become aware
--
Orcs get surprise round, PCs recover from surprise
--
Initiative

Otherwise, surprise is virtually meaningless; not to mention lame.

 

[Syrsuro]

Also: Why is are you breaking the orcs action up into:

Jump Out (move 5' or more)
{start surprise round}
Move again during surprise round (can't move only 5').


Wouldn't it make more sense to think of both of those as the same movement, which would almost certainly result in their moving at least two squares and thus being eligible for a charge attack?

Unless the orc is Jumping Out, Stopping to see how the PCs reacted, and then deciding how to engage (in which case they have lost surprise) - the action which starts the encounter is NOT the orc jumping out. It is the orc jumping out and charging the player.

Carl