The Surprise round anomally

[olivgor]

Ooh boy, what reactions

I still stand by my ruling: during the surprise round, orcs jump out (move action), then roll initiative. Characters are heroes, they react pretty fast in the face of danger, and have the opportunity to skewer the orcs with arrows or sword before the poor sods get a chance to know what happens…
Okay, that was the roleplaying part.

Now, down to the rules part:

A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants’ presence or hostile intentions. For example, if you fail your Perception check to notice concealed enemies, you’re surprised. Or if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers’ traitorous intentions, you’re surprised. But if any of your allies made their Perception or Insight checks, they’re not surprised. PHB 267

So in the example, the two orcs made their Stealth checks against the passive Perception score of the characters. They get a surprise round.

THE SURPRISE ROUND
-Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see “Action Types”). You can also take free actions, but you can’t spend action points. After every nonsurprised combatant has acted, the surprise round ends, and you can act normally in subsequent rounds. PHB 267

Unless my english has become very bad (english is not my first language, by the way), the orcs only get ONE action, in this case a move.
If they're stupid enough to just jump out of the bushes without charging, or making a ranged attack, or any other ONE action that is effective against the adventurer's, then so be it. But they're orcs, they're not supposed to be very bright. And they're probably used to peasants running away screaming when they see them.

The problem is that if you don't play surprise this way, you have strikers and lurkers jumping out of the bushes, making a move AND an attack in the surprise round, dealing massive damage. It's unfair to the players (or to the creatures, if your players use the same rules). I don't like it. But YMMV

 

[KarinsDad]

Not implementing that house rule could end up with many of the PCs getting one full round of attacks before the (ambushing) monsters get one.

...

Otherwise, surprise is virtually meaningless; not to mention lame.

Another thing to consider.

The NPCs do not care if they lose. Or at least, the DM should have nowhere near the time and emotional investment of any NPC that any player has with his or her PC.

But, if you have the NPCs able to run up to the PCs AND let loose with a Daily or Encounter power, that is a lot more potent. Now, combine that with the NPCs being able to do that twice because they both surprised the PCs and they won initiative.

Sure, this could happen anyway if the NPCs have encounter or daily ranged attacks.

However, what cannot happen if one does not use the house rule is that the NPCs cannot move in, gain the best advantageous position (e.g. Flank, or perfect position for a Blast to get all of the PCs) AND execute it without winning initiative.

With the house rule, this stuff can happen a lot. Best position, best attack, followed by best position a second time, and next best attack. By multiple NPCs. All before one or more PCs can act.


Do you as DM really care if the NPCs do not get a super ambush in every single time when you realize that there is an entire box of NPCs? There is only one of each PC and that single PC is important to a single player. The NPCs are not important at all with the exception of how the PCs act and react with them. For every dead NPC, there are a million behind him to take his place.

Who really cares if the NPCs get in a great ambush sometimes and a lousy ambush other times? Is it so important that NPCs get a good ambush in every single time, or are the PCs more important?

Note: I am not saying to spoon feed players. I just think that the house rule is a PPK or TPK waiting to happen sooner or later.

 

[Minigiant]

I always did it this way.

First the check (Stealth vs Perception or Bluff vs Insight in 4E)
Anyone not surprised and visible can move 1 square or draw 1 item before making their action.

So if the orcs are hiding in the bushes and you don't see them, the surprise round starts when they leave the bush.

If the nobleman turns on you and you don't see it coming, he gets to pull out the knife.

 

[Audrik]

With the house rule, this stuff can happen a lot. Best position, best attack, followed by best position a second time, and next best attack. By multiple NPCs. All before one or more PCs can act.

The situation can also happen exactly in reverse. A vast majority of the encounters I use are NOT ambushes. If they are, the PCs will potentially be at a disadvantage (which is how ambushes are designed). I generally consider this to make the encounter more difficult and design the other elements of the encounter accordingly.

Do you as DM really care if the NPCs do not get a super ambush in every single time when you realize that there is an entire box of NPCs? There is only one of each PC and that single PC is important to a single player. The NPCs are not important at all with the exception of how the PCs act and react with them. For every dead NPC, there are a million behind him to take his place.

Who really cares if the NPCs get in a great ambush sometimes and a lousy ambush other times? Is it so important that NPCs get a good ambush in every single time, or are the PCs more important?

Honestly, I don't want my NPCs to get super ambushes at all. What I want is for the players (and by extension, the PCs) to realize that if they aren't careful things CAN go very badly for them.

Note: I am not saying to spoon feed players. I just think that the house rule is a PPK or TPK waiting to happen sooner or later.

I completely agree. However, ANY encounter regardless of how surprise is handled could potentially kill a party regardless of how "balanced" it should have been.