The Surprise round anomally

[Skyscraper]

I would agree that the action of jumping out should be the standard action. Could the orcs not charge from their initial position, instead of "jumping out" and then moving to attack?

Anyway, assuming an orc is located 1 square away from another character at the beginning of a surprise round (however that happened), i see it as quite plausible that this orc would have the wrong balance to get anything going quickly enough to attack the character. Think about sports: sometimes, in close quarters, you just to have the space to get a move going. Whereas the orc 4 squares away has that space and can dive headlong into a charge.

Sky

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It seems pretty damned stupid and antithetical to both basic logic and good gaming to have "jumping out" (effectively "the encounter occuring") count as the action for the surprise round. Until the PCs are surprised, the Orcs should be able to act freely.

The players cannot be surprised until they interact with the Orcs in some way. Therefore, until the Orcs interact with the players in some way, the surprise round can't even occur. It's a non-round. When the Orcs become visible to the PCs, then the surprise round begins, because the players hadn't previously detected the Orcs in any way. Therefore the Orcs can then proceed to take their action for the round.

 

[lukelightning]

When the Orcs become visible to the PCs, then the surprise round begins, because the players hadn't previously detected the Orcs in any way.

But the important thing is to allow a perception check.

 

[VirtualWizard]

With the lack of iterative attacks, how much would it break the game to remove the one action limit on the surprise round?

My group has always complained that the surprise round (in both 3.x and what we've played of 4E) is essentially useless (unless you get to go first in the non-surprise round). It's lead to a lot of cases of "You surprise the enemy! Now you can either move up to him and take a full attack when he goes, or wait for him to come to you!"

I can see in 3E the need for a standard or move restriction, but not so much for 4E. What do you all think?

A surprise round should be beneficial to the ambusher(s). So, I've always given the ambusher(s) a full round of actions in 3.5 and intend to do so in 4e.

 

[Switchback]

My group has always complained that the surprise round (in both 3.x and what we've played of 4E) is essentially useless

I think it rewards ranged or casting characters and it makes sense to. Moving obviously takes time, about the same time as it takes the ranger to pull up and fire his bow or the wizard to cast a spell.

Even the melee characters can benefit by forming up ideal positioning on their surprise turn. Get out of charge lines, or set up flanking traps. The Rogue can get into cover and try to stealth. Or heck just grab quick draw and have your melee's carry their missile weapon, or at least in cases where you are purposely doing something like busting in a room in an attempt to surprise enemies.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But the important thing is to allow a perception check.

Yes, that is an important thing, and something KotS doesn't seem terribly keen on (and when it allows it at all, gives ridiculous DCs entirely out-of-whack with the stealth mods of the creatures involved).

 

[FireLance]

Currently if your knock your target prone or daze him, you can shift one square away and he can not attack you in melee in any way. This is very strong, and one of the best uses of these abilties.

As mentioned, this two-square "ring of safety" feels artificial to me. The notion that you can move two squares and attack with one action, but you cannot move one square and attack with one action seems strange, as it implies that doing less (moving one square) actually takes more effort than doing more (moving two or more squares). I can see why you might not get an attack bonus if you haven't moved far enough to build up momentum, but not being able to attack at all bothers me.

If you change this rule, this will no longer be true. Knocking people prone in particular will become far weaker because there will be no way to stop them from charging. Certain powers would go from being strong to lame.

A prone character still grants combat advantage to adjacent melee attacks, so tripping an enemy isn't useless. And if you want to get away from a prone opponent, don't shift - run.

 

[FadedC]

As mentioned, this two-square "ring of safety" feels artificial to me. The notion that you can move two squares and attack with one action, but you cannot move one square and attack with one action seems strange, as it implies that doing less (moving one square) actually takes more effort than doing more (moving two or more squares). I can see why you might not get an attack bonus if you haven't moved far enough to build up momentum, but not being able to attack at all bothers me.

I don't disagree that it's artificial.

A prone character still grants combat advantage to adjacent melee attacks, so tripping an enemy isn't useless. And if you want to get away from a prone opponent, don't shift - run.

Granting CA is far weaker then granting CA AND missing a full round of attacks. As for running away....it draws an attack of opportunity with CA and then the target will just attack your friends.

So yes if you change the rule it will be less artificial. It will also have a dramatic effect on game balance and make many classes and powers weaker. Seems like a bad trade to me, but your opinion may be different.

 

[Azza]

I confess the Orcs jumping out wasn't exactly what happened, I was only using that as an example to illustrate the oddity.
One character went around the side of a boulder and was surprised by two hidden Kobolds. We were all surprised, but his character was by far the closest. Now not being able to charge isnt a problem for shifty Kobolds so I change the example to Orcs.
It just seems odd that if they werent shifty Kolbods the one only 2 squares away should run past him charging one of the other characters to get an attack. Like it was some kind of timeshift thing were the further he moves the more time he has up his sleeve!
Maybe in this case I would let the surprising character 'leap and attack', moving the one square, all other things being equal, and attacking to prevent the oddity.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Have the 1st Orc bullrush the PC. and then have the 2nd orc charge and attack. what the heck could be fun