The Swashbuckling Rogue

[andargor]

I've been reading some threads about the archetypical Rogue. You know, the sneaky thief type. And I've read some others about how the Rogue class is flexible, and that being a thief is not a necessity with this class.

So, this provoked some thinking on my part (a rare occurrence ). What if I wanted to build a Swashbuckling Rogue? The flamboyant, dashing and daring, acrobatic, unarmored fencer?

Looking at the core books, I have found this to be somewhat unsatisfying. However, taking a peek at the Swashbuckling Adventures and Evil (AEG) splatbooks, things get interesting. (I've included short descriptions for the feats in these books)

So, I've made the following CL 9 fighter-rogue build. If you could, please give your comments on the munchkinness (sp?) of this build. I've used up a lot of feats to optimize the use of dexterity and to boost unarmored AC. Also, I'll discuss some tactics this character would use, please comment on rulings.

Here it is:

(I use some standard values for abilities, based on our rolling method: 4d6, one reroll, 13,17,14,14,12,12, move up to 3 points around, place rolls anywhere)

Ronnie the Roguish, Male Human Rogue5 Fighter4 CR 9; Size: M Type HUMANOID; HD (5d6)+(4d10)+18; hp 64; Init +8 (+8 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 30'; AC 30 (flatfooted 30, touch 27), *Rapier +1 (Keen) +16/+11 0'P (1d6+9 15-20/x2 Primary M threat range doubled); SA: Evasion (Ex), Sneak Attack +3d6, Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC); Vision: Normal AL: CG; Sv: Fort +9, Ref +15, Will +5; Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

Skills: Balance +22, Bluff +14, Climb +5, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist +20, Innuendo +2, Intimidate +9, Jump +14, Ride +9, Sense Motive +7, Swim +2, Tumble +22, Use Magic Device +10, Use Rope +12;

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician, Extra Finesse (Rapier), Improved Feint, Ultimate Feint, Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Beginner), Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Intermediate), Weapon Finesse (Rapier)

Possessions: 1 Amulet of Natural Armor +1, 1 Vest of Resistance +2, 1 Bracers of Armor +2, 1 Gloves of Dexterity +4, 1 Outfit (Explorer's), 1 Rapier +1 (Keen), 1 Ring of Protection +1,

(Ok, I bust the budget by 320 gp, so sue me. Or give me a credit card)

Splatbook Feat descriptions:

SA = Swashbuckling Adventures
EVIL = Evil (AEG)

Extra Finesse (SA): add Dex bonus to damage for a weapon that is Weapon Finesse'd
Improved Feint (EVIL): +3 on Bluff checks in combat
Ultimate Feint (EVIL): Bluff (feint) in combat as a free action
Unarmored Defense Proficiency (SA): Three levels of feats to improve AC while not wearing armor, based on CL

Tactics:

- Due to high AC and Tumbling skills, would attempt to position himself to flank and deal sneak attacks. (Outrageous actions as much as possible); or
- Darts in and out of combat. AoO's are not much of a problem. Use Bluff to feint and deal sneak attack damage + 1 extra attack (Expert Tactician) or move out of range using the extra partial action. (Taunt as much as possible); or
- Stands fast and full attacks, feinting before each attack, dealing sneak attack damage

The last two bother me a bit, because having a good chance of dealing 4d6+9 damage per attack seems a bit much. Is there a limit on the number of feints in a round, considering the Ultimate Feint feat allows it as a free action? And what happens when Expert Tactician kicks in? Seems it would kick in every time, giving extra partial actions. Borders on brokenness.

Down the road for this character, other than using up another feat in the Unarmored Defense Proficiency line, there is Dodge/Acrobatic Dodge (SA, Dex mod times per day a Reflex save vs DC 20+magic bonus of a melee or ranged attack that would hit makes it miss instead). Again, makes this character very hard to hit...

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is there a limit on the number of feints in a round, considering the Ultimate Feint feat allows it as a free action? And what happens when Expert Tactician kicks in? Seems it would kick in every time, giving extra partial actions. Borders on brokenness.

That's a result of a crazy ruling in the S&S FAQ on the interaction of QttE and ET, that shows the person writing it didn't read the feats.

A Feint causes the opponent to lose his Dex bonus against your next attack. Until you attack, they don't lose their Dex bonus. So even with Quicker than the Eye, you can only gain one ET attack per round - MEA to Bluff, Standard Action to attack. When you attack, they lose their Dex bonus against that attack, so ET triggers.

The Song and Silence FAQ suggests that as soon as you successfully use QttE to Bluff, ET triggers and you can make an extra attack. And since you've only used an MEA so far, you can use QttE again... and trigger ET again.

So for some reason, bluffing someone twice allows you to use Expert Tactician more often than if they were Held... if you treat that FAQ ruling as valid.

Personally, I look at where it states within the text of Expert Tactician that you take the extra attack "Either before or after your regular action".

Start of your action - they haven't lost their Dex bonus. If you do something with an MEA that causes them to lose their Dex bonus, you're eligible to take an ET attack after your regular action. "In between one MEA and the next MEA" is not "after your regular action".

By my reading - ET once per round. Only. Ever.

-Hyp.

 

[andargor]

Re: Re: The Swashbuckling Rogue

By my reading - ET once per round. Only. Ever.

Yeah, I agree. So, he could have the following Full Attack routine:

Bluff (free action)
At +16: Sneak Attack, ET Triggered
Bluff (free action)
At +11: Sneak Attack (ET already Triggered)
ET: Attack at +16 or tumble away.

Sounds right?

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: The Swashbuckling Rogue

Sounds right?

That's how I'd run it... without having seen the text of the Ultimate Feint feat, I'll assume that it can be used before every attack.

I know others will disagree - there was a thread recently about a Prestige Class in Dragon that got the same ability (Feint as a free action) as a 5th level class ability, and the "reasonable limt on the number of free actions in a round" clause was invoked repeatedly.

-Hyp.

 

[andargor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Swashbuckling Rogue

That's how I'd run it... without having seen the text of the Ultimate Feint feat, I'll assume that it can be used before every attack.

Even if only one feint would be allowed, it would still save a MEA compared to QttE at the cost of an extra feat.

I guess, to rationalise it, you could say that in order to feint, you need to "set it up". And there's only so much you can do in 6 seconds...

Rule-0-land, I guess.

Andargor

 

[Darklone]

I am just a little bit confused... how do you reach Dex 26? You have a +4 stat booster, two stat raises ... that's a 23 for me... Or are you allowed to move 3 points to Dex? Wow.

Otherwise: These feats sound sick, crazy and forboding. Improved Finesse... +8 to damage with that weapon... comparing that to WS, a pretty good feat with a puny +2 damage... (Imp Fin only counts against enemies susceptible to critical hits?).

But all in all, I like it. D&D wasn't really made to make armourless chars playable, so bending the core rules a little bit for fun sounds ok to me.

Oops: Splatbooks IMHO are only the ugly brown books of brokeness

 

[DMauricio]

I am just a little bit confused... how do you reach Dex 26? You have a +4 stat booster, two stat raises ... that's a 23 for me... Or are you allowed to move 3 points to Dex? Wow.

Actually, with an 18 stat, a +4 stat bonus and 2 stat increases, he would be on 24. (so even with 3 stat increases, I dunno how you got to 26 with a human)

unless I'm missing something.

Still, it'd be a rather impressive non-armoured character.

Have you thought of taking the duelist prc from S&F?
(instead of fighter levels)

ie rog6/due3 (I think you can make the pre-reqs at rog6)

you'd get bonuses to your sneak attack, and you can add your int mod to AC.

the other alternative would be to use the thief acrobat prc from S&S, or even the blade dancer prc from OA (though you'd need to be able to cast either divine or arcane spells to qualify)



just my $0.02


Dom

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, with an 18 stat, a +4 stat bonus and 2 stat increases, he would be on 24. (so even with 3 stat increases, I dunno how you got to 26 with a human)

unless I'm missing something.

Check his first message:

"(I use some standard values for abilities, based on our rolling method: 4d6, one reroll, 13,17,14,14,12,12, move up to 3 points around, place rolls anywhere)"

He's put the 13 in Str, and "moved three points" to Dex, using his campaign house rule.

-Hyp.

 

[DMauricio]

Thanks.
I thought I was missing something

 

[andargor]

Have you thought of taking the duelist prc from S&F?
(instead of fighter levels)

ie rog6/due3 (I think you can make the pre-reqs at rog6)

you'd get bonuses to your sneak attack, and you can add your int mod to AC.

Yes, I did think of that. But with those ability scores, it would only give the character an extra +2 AC, at the loss of the fighter's bonus feats. I decided to take the feats instead of the +2 AC.

But I agree that for flavor, the Duelist is pretty cool

Andargor