The talismanic lure of high levels

[hong]

I play the fighter6/barb6 in Hong's campaign, and money is not necessarily an issue in the power-up stakes. I'd guess that the magic level would be more on the order of Greyhawk (if not a little lower), rather than the level found in the Forgotten Realms.

Heh, labels are interesting. If asked, I would probably describe the campaign as fairly close to baseline D&D, which seems to be accepted as "high magic" by everyone. That's in terms of wild and wonderful effects going on, regardless of the in-game methods by which these effects are produced.

You have an evil cult of necromancers who chuck spells like harm, cloudkill and slay living around. Geoff's mage gets plenty of mileage out of telekinesis, sound lance and fireball. While teleport may be nerfed, you guys are using dimension door and wind walk to great effect. A lot of encounters feature flight in some form or another, eg the ghaele, the guardian of the shrine of Sacrifice, the time when Darius got breathed on by the cryohydra and had to make 10 Reflex saves.... And let's also not forget the session in bizarro world I MEAN the Lycaeum, with magic-substituted intercoms, PDAs and flat-screen monitors, and various encounters involving demons and beer.

The imbued-magic rules help cut down on the loot-and-plunder aspect of the game, definitely. But flying is flying, whether you get it from winged boots or an air walk spell, and that's pretty supernatural.

Something else that might reduce the anything-goes atmosphere of a stereotypical D&D game is the restricted number of game elements like races, classes, PrCs, etc. I'm not sure whether that has anything to do with "low magic" or "high magic" though. After all, most of the flashy elements like fireball are still around, and used in profusion. If anything, this points to how restricting options can be useful in creating a desired feel, regardless of what that feel may be.

 

[Snoweel]

Given that you will never see the worst effort "before other modifiers", I fail to see what practical relevance this has.

I think you're still being deliberately obtuse, bro.

Take away all the magic gadgets that high level characters would otherwise have, and the d20 roll still means something.

Particularly against those pesky static DCs.

And what are these imbued magic rules of which you speak? Spending 1xp for every 10gp of magic item cost you want your masterwork item to have?

TELL ME DAMMIT !!!!!!!!!1

 

[Goblyn]

I
And what are these imbued magic rules of which you speak? Spending 1xp for every 10gp of magic item cost you want your masterwork item to have?
TELL ME DAMMIT !!!!!!!!!

I'm not quite as adamant about it, but my curiosity is also piqued about these alleged 'imbued magic rules'.

Dish.

 

[hong]

I think you're still being deliberately obtuse, bro.

Take away all the magic gadgets that high level characters would otherwise have, and the d20 roll still means something.

Particularly against those pesky static DCs.

The point is that, at 10th level and below, generally you _haven't_ got all these "magic gadgets". Take the example of the cloak of elvenkind I mentioned earlier. At 10th level, a rogue might have that, plus the matching boots, a ring or two, magic armour and a weapon. _Six items_ for someone who would be at the pinnacle of achievement is hardly dripping with gear. It's certainly nothing like the 18 items that were burdening my 20th level archer PC in the high-level campaign just concluded.

And what are these imbued magic rules of which you speak? Spending 1xp for every 10gp of magic item cost you want your masterwork item to have?

TELL ME DAMMIT !!!!!!!!!1

How am I supposed to break myself of this pimping habit at this rate?

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/imbued_magic.htm

It's actually 1 XP per 5 gp, but we found that, if you wanted to keep pace with the DMG guidelines on wealth, that's pretty steep (the amount of gear at high levels is just astounding). So after 10th level, I cut the rate to 1 XP per 10 gp.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Well, obviously the problem is one of multi-classing and granularity. How can I be a super awesome fighter/rogue/blackguard/assassin with only 10 levels? Seriously however, the fewer levels available, the less I can mix and match to get exactly the feel that I want. PRC's also become an interesting dilemma, though revising how those work is probablly a good idea anyway.

This conversation made me realize that the game I want to run goes from levels 3-5 though.

And on skill points, would it be possible to simply lower overall DC's a little bit. Yeah, yeah, don't change stuff, but I mean, if the game should feature level two rogues running up walls with a decent success rate, why not drop the DC down to 15?

 

[Crass]

Heh, labels are interesting. If asked, I would probably describe the campaign as fairly close to baseline D&D, which seems to be accepted as "high magic" by everyone. That's in terms of wild and wonderful effects going on, regardless of the in-game methods by which these effects are produced.

You have an evil cult of necromancers who chuck spells like harm, cloudkill and slay living around. Geoff's mage gets plenty of mileage out of telekinesis, sound lance and fireball. While teleport may be nerfed, you guys are using dimension door and wind walk to great effect. A lot of encounters feature flight in some form or another, eg the ghaele, the guardian of the shrine of Sacrifice, the time when Darius got breathed on by the cryohydra and had to make 10 Reflex saves.... And let's also not forget the session in bizarro world I MEAN the Lycaeum, with magic-substituted intercoms, PDAs and flat-screen monitors, and various encounters involving demons and beer.

The imbued-magic rules help cut down on the loot-and-plunder aspect of the game, definitely.
<snip>

My point was that we are not weighed down by about a tonne of magic items. After all, I did not get quickdraw so that I could switch between my golfbag of magic swords etc (although I certainly DO switch between my one magic (enchanted) glaive and my masterworked (magically imbued) dire pick or maul). And there are no 9th-level spells, limitations/differences in some magical effects such as teleport, etc. I'm not denying there are no magic effects - my repeated failure to make saves when HARMED are proof of that.

Hong, thanks for admitting you'd drank one low alcohol beer while DMing the Lycaeum session - I'm glad you've conceded what the effects of one beer on you are, and am confident that you are seeking help for your... problem.

 

[rounser]

How am I supposed to break myself of this pimping habit at this rate?

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/imbued_magic.htm

It's actually 1 XP per 5 gp, but we found that, if you wanted to keep pace with the DMG guidelines on wealth, that's pretty steep (the amount of gear at high levels is just astounding). So after 10th level, I cut the rate to 1 XP per 10 gp.

So you end up with superpowers instead of magic item dependencies?

Not sure me likee the idea of that too much either...have enough problems suspending disbelief for the sillier superpowered class abilities.

 

[FireLance]

Given that you will never see the worst effort "before other modifiers", I fail to see what practical relevance this has. It's like asking what a naked singularity looks like, or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

By 15th level, the influence of the d20 roll is already often negligible compared to the effects of modifiers, and that's against other 15th level characters. When you're talking about 1st level mooks, there simply is no comparison. You can get to this point by 10th level, easy.

Yup, like Snoweel said, this is a low-magic game. No Girdles of Giant Strength, no Gloves of Dexterity, no Cloaks of Elvenkind, no Eyes of the Eagle, no Boots of Striding and Springing, no Ring of Swimming. Just the characters, their ability scores, BAB, skill ranks, feats and mundane equipment. You need every one of those 20 levels to beat the 1st level mooks all the time .

 

[hong]

Yup, like Snoweel said, this is a low-magic game. No Girdles of Giant Strength, no Gloves of Dexterity, no Cloaks of Elvenkind, no Eyes of the Eagle, no Boots of Striding and Springing, no Ring of Swimming. Just the characters, their ability scores, BAB, skill ranks, feats and mundane equipment. You need every one of those 20 levels to beat the 1st level mooks all the time .

1. If you want to make up contrived situations, go for it. The assumption is that we're talking LOW magic, not NO magic. If you there to be NO magic, I suggest playing Counterstrike.

2. Take 10 is your friend.

 

[hong]

So you end up with superpowers instead of magic item dependencies?

Limiting it to items that are always-on or have a free action activation time takes out most of the flashy stuff: flaming swords, winged boots, helms of brilliance, etc. What's left are armour enchantments like fortification, weapon enchantments like holy, plus boots of speed, cloaks of displacement, etc. Stuff that doesn't really stand out that much in a crowd.

Not sure me likee the idea of that too much either...have enough problems suspending disbelief for the sillier superpowered class abilities.

Super powers only become really evident at high levels. Below that, basically all that happens is that you hit harder, run faster, and live longer.

Besides which, high-level D&D is wuxia, which is all about the superpowers. I might have mentioned it already.