The talismanic lure of high levels

[S'mon]

Actually, at levels 13+, those orcs have been trained and organized into a deadly force by a mysterious third party. The adventurers almost don't notice until too late because they just don't take the road any more.

Er, I was talking about IMC and how I _don't_ scale the environment to the PC's level!
As I've been trying to say, my world's "environment" includes areas suitable for adventuring at a wide range of levels, 1-20 or at least 3-15 or so (I do have trouble keeping level 1-2 PCs alive). And this is perfectly realistic - real world adventurous-type fighters, soldiers, mercenaries and such, will seek out or be sent to face greater challenges as their skills increase; likewise IMC. Sometimes things go wrong - the party of 20 2nd level Royal Marines guarding the Falkland Islands gets invaded by the entire Argentine army - but such events, though they can happen to PCs IMC, are inherently rare.

 

[Crass]

But for many people it is the low magic itself that is the flavor thing that they want to achieve and levels has nothing to do with it.

There can still be +5 Holy Swords and Staff of the Magi and what have you, it is just that PCs aren't going to making them with any kind of ease.

<snip>

"Low Magic" isn't just about mehcanics, it is about theme, stories, ambience, etc. . .

<snip>

I could go on and on about this stuff, but basically it is not just a matter of I don't want people to be 11th level - It jus ttakes longer to get there and it is harder and there are lessons to be learned and harsh consequeces for the lives of those who follow those paths. . .

get me?

I play the fighter6/barb6 in Hong's campaign, and money is not necessarily an issue in the power-up stakes. I'd guess that the magic level would be more on the order of Greyhawk (if not a little lower), rather than the level found in the Forgotten Realms. Hong uses a system where little gold/treasure is doled out, and most "magic" items found are masterworked items that the previous owner imbued (at 1XP/10gp). In anybody else's hands, the item functions purely as a masterworked item. This has the effect of reducing the power LEVEL of the campaign, as you are not walking around with a fisftul of dollars looking for the nearest "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" to spend your hard-earned. It does not reduce the flavour - or fun factor - of the campaign, unless you happen to be one of those perverse individuals whose main enjoyment of the game comes from the level-up process

I am an anomaly in the campaign in that I WANT my prime weapon to be magical, not imbued, and had been saving for about 6 sessions to afford to increase the enchantment on my glaive. I was only about 400gp short of my target, and then was forced to spend half my accumulated funds to pay for the short-term services of an trumpet archon... Fair enough, as it came in handy on a number of occasions and the party appreciated its help. I'm handicapping myself by delaying my acquisition of power. I'm not diminishing the enjoyment of the campaign, rather I'm lending it a little more flavour. To quote nemmerle again,

"It jus ttakes longer to get there and it is harder and there are lessons to be learned and harsh consequeces for the lives of those who follow those paths. . ."

Enough said.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. To skip around the low magic talk and that other stuff: I wanted to say something about status quo or "challenging encounters".

I prefer status quo worlds for a "realistic and logical" feeling. IMC, the PCs start low in an environment where they have to pick their fights (if they fight) carefully. The lure of high levels simply means they have more influence in the political arena where they started as watchers.

 

[drnuncheon]

And truely 'random encounters' are not tailored to the party - the red drago doesn't vanish when the peasants stroll by on the road, only to leap on the lvl-20 PCs. If he's there at all, he's there for everyone. Most likely he's not there - else there wouldn't be any peasants.

Or if he is, there are many and numerous signs of his presence, and when the party encounters him it's their own fault. (Probably for metagaming - "The DM wouldn't put something here that we couldn't handle!")

J

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

The reason I want to play high level characters is that I played in 2e for several years and never got to play anyone higher than about 8th level. Admittedly, we didn't play that often, but I do really feel like I've served my low level 'apprenticeship' and should be allowed to break out the big guns and dish out over 100hp of damage in a round (sometimes in one hit if I crit).

That's the reason I like high level play - because I don't have much experience of it.

 

[Piratecat]

Er, I was talking about IMC and how I _don't_ scale the environment to the PC's level!

I was actually trying to differentiate between scaling and cause and effect, because there's a difference. My point was that once PCs are teleporting and not taking the road, and maybe there are less people on the road killing orcs, which means that they qualify for minions from someone who wants to manipulate them for his own nefarious purposes. The orcs don't get appreciably tougher, but perhaps they learn tactics from the bad guy or get reinforcements. Mind you, if the group had still been walking, he never would have gotten a foothold in the first place.

Sorry to hijack your example.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

I don't think you can equate low-magic campaigns with low-level limits. You can have 20th-lvl characters in a low magic world. Magic items are irrelevant. Seems like you have a beef against low-magic item campaigns.

I'm interested in playing to 20th-lvl simply b/c our group has never done it before. We always tailed off around 9th-10th level. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Personally, I could care less about the power level. In fact, I find it slows the game down (i.e. with multiple attacks per round).

In the past, I've found low levels more fun b/c of the way the hp system works. Things are usually deadlier at lower levels, with the exception of high level instant death spells (which we don't tend to enjoy). Once PCs get enough hp not to worry so much about a pack of ordinary goblins, it's just not as interesting. And having a pack of 5th-lvl goblins seems a little, uh, unusual.

But we'll see. Maybe we'll even try out the Epic rules. Who knows...

 

[FireLance]

But people still want to get to 20th level.

Why do they REALLY want to get there?

It's the d20 system. 20-sided dice, 20 levels. Coincidence? Now, if you were playing d02, you'd hit Epic at 3rd level. Can you say Epic Toughness?

Seriously, though - 20 levels, at a +1 to the d20 roll on the relevant factor (BAB, skill ranks, etc.) means that even the worst effort of a 20th-level character is as good as the best effort of a 1st-level character before other modifiers. To get the same effect with a 10-level system, you'd need to roll d10s.

 

[Beretta]

I agree with all the points Hong raised.

Why go to all that trouble when a much more simlistic method is available? One that achieves the same goals?

As for low magic - my players got enough of that in 1e/2e when campaigns run by another DM would fizzle at 10th level or so due his dislike of the uber-power stuff (and the fact that it took so long to level up anyway).

They saw all this cool stuff in their PHB's that they never got to use - Meteor Swarms, Wishes, powerful magic items etc, amongst other powers.

My current campaign (winding up) has been played bi-monthly for over two years and has seen them advance from 1st to 25th level (though I've since discovered that I'm not much of a fan of Epic as it is presented by WotC).

They have been so pleased at finally being able to access all those great powers and abilities that have previously been beyond reach and have had some fun with them. They have performed heroic deeds and faced down incredible dangers, and emerged triumphant (though sometimes not without losses).

They have had fun, so have I, and I am just happy that I was able to deliver (in varying degrees for each player) what they seemed to want in a D&D campaign.

 

[hong]

Seriously, though - 20 levels, at a +1 to the d20 roll on the relevant factor (BAB, skill ranks, etc.) means that even the worst effort of a 20th-level character is as good as the best effort of a 1st-level character before other modifiers. To get the same effect with a 10-level system, you'd need to roll d10s.

Given that you will never see the worst effort "before other modifiers", I fail to see what practical relevance this has. It's like asking what a naked singularity looks like, or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

By 15th level, the influence of the d20 roll is already often negligible compared to the effects of modifiers, and that's against other 15th level characters. When you're talking about 1st level mooks, there simply is no comparison. You can get to this point by 10th level, easy.