The truth about THAC0

[Algolei]

You know, sometimes I just can't understand people's thinking. A guy claims that it is a bad thing about D&D3 that all high rolls are good because he has a Player who cheats. And folks jump on me for calling the statement ridiculous?

*I'm* being asinine? No comment on Algolei's statements?

Quasqueton

Um, I don't know exactly what your problem is with me, but yes: I don't like a rules sytem that makes it easier to cheat. Given the choice, I would play the same game with a different rolling system.

I never said the game makes him cheat, I merely said he cheats. He never used a cheat die before because it wouldn't have worked as well in earlier editions as it does in 3E.

How do you find these statements to be "assinine?" :\

 

[sullivan]

What? 90 posts and still noone has mentioned the one thing BAB handles that THAC0 never attempted to account for in a meaningful way? One word; Multiclass. 3e was the first version that attempted to handle PCs with multiple classes in a meaningful way. Prior to 3e multiclass rules were a wierd tacked on abomination.

 

[Algolei]

I think my reading comprehention has fallen to a 1st grade level. You don't mind your players cheating? I can't have read that one right...

Nah, I hate them cheating, that's why I try to stop it. Bubba has been cheating at everything his whole life. When he sees a flaw, he goes for it.

 

[sullivan]

I never said the game makes him cheat, I merely said he cheats. He never used a cheat die before because it wouldn't have worked as well in earlier editions as it does in 3E.

Umm, he needs a second die anyway. Unless you assume your dice isn't going to get checked, so you don't have to palm the bad-boy while the legit one of the set gets checked out. Not that they don't need some good magician skills to pull it off. They have to make the dice move fast so they aren't spotted because if you see a "19" next to the "20" they just rolled you should know that isn't a real "20".

P.S. If you are that concerned about it buy him one of those sets for the vision impared where each die is about 1" diameter, and make sure it is a solid colour (not speckled) with good contrast between the dark printed numbers and a lighter coloured background. Otherwise they don't even need cheater dice, he'll just tell you he rolled whatever number he wants to.

 

[diaglo]

Umm, he needs a second die anyway.

r u crazy.

never touch another man's die.

 

[Algolei]

Umm, he needs a second die anyway. Unless you assume your dice isn't going to get checked, so you don't have to palm the bad-boy while the legit one of the set gets checked out. Not that they don't need some good magician skills to pull it off. They have to make the dice move fast so they aren't spotted because if you see a "19" next to the "20" they just rolled you should know that isn't a real "20".

Nah, it's easier just to ask him to roll before I tell him what he's rolling for: That way he doesn't know if he needs a high number or a low number until after he's rolled.

He's already a pretty good palmer, anyway.

P.S. If you are that concerned about it buy him one of those sets for the vision impared where each die is about 1" diameter, and make sure it is a solid colour (not speckled) with good contrast between the dark printed numbers and a lighter coloured background. Otherwise they don't even need cheater dice, he'll just tell you he rolled whatever number he wants to.

I tried buying him dice once, they all got "accidentally smashed by a rock."

One game, I insisted everyone use the same d20, which I had previously marked so that each side was a different colour. That way his usual tactic of sitting as far away from me as possible didn't work--I could still tell what he had rolled. That die also got "smashed by a rock," but not as bad. I still have it. It's got almost no edges left, so it never stops rolling. (I call it my d1. )

 

[jasper]

Excuse call it a flaw in the game that it cheats. He been your friend for 20 years and he steals cheats regularly and you still play with the guy? OK he at -10 on my scale, does he have a few great features to offset the cheater in him? Brings you flowers, booze, etc.
I once had a guy cheat at just fun poker. (no money on the table) He laid down a "flush" showing all red. He then berated us for not checking his hand. It was busted flush he just laid down the cards to block the suit on some cards. He then ask us to play poker with him and got tick off when I told I didn't play with cheaters. Would called him more but he out ranked me by two stripes and 40 pouunds.
Sorry. I am over my addiction to D&D and other games, so I don't play with people I know who are cheating and have a hard time with someone who would sit in at crooked game.

 

[Psion]

Let's take a look at this:

We'll be generous and assume 2e since you are talking about THAC0 (in 1e, it was shorthand in the DMG monster appendix more than a formalized mechanic.)

I will also assume that the DM does not disclose the target's AC to the players.

Operations:

2e:
Player knows THAC0. Has pre-figured attack modifiers.

Player
- Rolls to hit.
-Adds bonuses, giving a modified to-hit number

From here, generally my experience was:
DM
- Subtracts AC from THAC0
- Compares results to player's roll.

If you had a well heeled player that is not math anxious, DM step one might be unloaded on the player and the player reports AC hit. But you couldn't rely on it (our english and graphic design students weren't as up on this as the physical science and engineering students in our group.)

Now in 3e:
Player:
- Rolls to hit
- Adds pre-computed modifier

DM
- Compares result to AC.

As I see it, the 3e method has three (possibly four) points of superiority over THAC0
- You don't have a second computation
- You do no subtraction (usually less intuitive for humans, though the operation is identical in computation time for a computer). What was "THAC0 minus AC" in 2e is rolled into one.
- You do no double negatives (also potentially confusing for humans.)
- You never require the DM to do math, which is a time bottleneck since the DM will have to do it for all players (admitedly, if your players reported AC in 2e, this was not a problem.)

Now, I do beleive that there are some potential drawbacks to the 3e method at high levels that aren't taken into account in analyzing a single roll:
- Like subtraction, adding pairs of double digit numbers is less easy for humans than adding a single digit number to another single or double digit number.
- ITERATIVE ATTACKS. This is the bane of D&D (and the glory of Spycraft, which lacks them). Having multiple separate attack modifiers means that it is not sufficient to have a single modifier on your sheet -- you must have multiple modifiers. A corallary of this is that you must remember which dice roll went with what modifier, and retain/remember your results until the DM has relayed the results. This more than anything adds time to high level combats.

 

[Storminator]

What math on both sides? The players rolls a hit, looks at his chart (lots of character sheets had a place to fill in ones own Thac0) tales what AC he hit. DM looks at AC of monstere and says if it is a hit. Which is eaxcatly what we do in third edition. Player rools dice, tells what AC he hit. DM compaires with AC of monster and tells the player if he hit.

I think its that you have to do operations on both sides of the ">" sign that messes people up. You'll note that everyone that says it's no big deal has done the algebra to move all the operations to one side.

PS

In your chart you have done the algebra to move all operations to one side of the ">" sign, and you have solved it for enemy AC. If you read the rules right out of the book, and apply them without manipulation to make the chart, you have to do math on both sides of the ">" sign. You have to subtract AC off Thac0, and you have to add your bonus to your d20 roll.

The essence of the argument between Thac0 and 3e's attack bonus system is who solves the equation for AC. Does each individual player do it, or does the game system do it? In 3e the game system does. In 1e the game system did the math and made a lookup table. In 2e individual players did the math. The only thing left to resolve is which of those methods one prefers, and how much you care at all.

Oh, and apparently, we need to kvetch about cheating.

PS

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Quick Notes:

I've played since the beginnings of 2nd Edition, and (most of the gropu at the time had been playing since 1st)....

After playing 3.0 for 6 months, we decided to try an old school 2nd edition game. THAC0 kicked our butt for several hours before we could remember how to do it quickly (once our attack rolls started hitting negative AC's). In fact, if it wasn't for the THAC0 track on all our 2nd editon character sheets, I'd have thought BAB a godsend. It is simply more intuitive for many people (particularly those who've never played before).

I'll go on record as prefering BAB over THAC0, and that BAB is better than THAC0 for this reason: No AC limit. Playing in high level 3rd ed games, I can still feel challenged to hit creatures, something that never happened in high level 2nd ed games. If AC didn't max out at -10, I might feel different. Oh, yeah, AD&D was never meant for characters over 20th level, 3rd edition does a much better job at high levels (compare Epic Book to Player's Option: High level of FR high level option). Epic book (which ain't great) does a better job than any of those other 2.

In the end 3rd editon does a better job of holding together for more levels before falling apart as power levels increase.

As for all the dice "Complaining" If someone's using cheater's dice, I go to DM Dice, otherwise known as "Whatever I feel like rolling" "Oh, yes, that would be the third crit in a row." If he doesn't get the hint, kill his character, in the above posts, I'd feel fine saying the sky opens up above him and "a rock smashes his character."

As for cheating being made easier, what do you only have 1 d20 you roll? My group always had tons of dice. In 2nd ed we'd have attack dice and skill check dice (don't want to blow any karma good high rolling attack dice might have). In fact, I've had to "retire" my lucky red skill check die. It was the 3rd d20 I owned, and would usually (not always) roll low. In retrospect, I figure it is an inperfect die, propablly miscast a little bit.

Cheaters should NEVER prosper, not when the DM has random heart attack powers.