The truth about THAC0

[Staffan]

In your chart you have done the algebra to move all operations to one side of the ">" sign, and you have solved it for enemy AC.

All the sheets I made for 2e had an "adjusted THAC0" entry for weapons (to take magic bonuses, weapon specialization and possibly other things into account), and general melee/ranged THAC0 entries somewhere nearby.

 

[Psion]

If I suspected a player was using cheater dice, I'd randomly "invert" rolls (roll = 20 - actual roll 50% of the time.)

Or create a bunch of situations in which if you rolled good, you were hosed (will-o-wisp like electrical elementals that shock everyone that hits them, monsters that undergo death throes if you kill them too quick, monsters that don't use the really nasty permanent drain powers until after their sleep attack has failed...)

 

[Storminator]

If I suspected a player was using cheater dice, I'd randomly "invert" rolls (roll = 20 - actual roll 50% of the time.)

Or create a bunch of situations in which if you rolled good, you were hosed (will-o-wisp like electrical elementals that shock everyone that hits them, monsters that undergo death throes if you kill them too quick, monsters that don't use the really nasty permanent drain powers until after their sleep attack has failed...)

I'd just wait until he picked up the dice and say 'I didn't see that roll. Roll it again." But I'd only do that on the critical hits.

PS

 

[Gez]

If I suspected a player was using cheater dice, I'd randomly "invert" rolls (roll = 20 - actual roll 50% of the time.)

A true inversion would be "roll = 21 - actual roll" . . .

Rather than using "50% of the time", though, use this simpler guideline:
If it's odd, keep the roll as is, if it's even, invert it. That way, a natural 1 stays a natural 1, and a natural 20 becomes a natural 1. Overall, it's still 50% of the time.

 

[Silverleaf]

What? 90 posts and still noone has mentioned the one thing BAB handles that THAC0 never attempted to account for in a meaningful way? One word; Multiclass. 3e was the first version that attempted to handle PCs with multiple classes in a meaningful way. Prior to 3e multiclass rules were a wierd tacked on abomination.

You're right, although not all editions use the concept of multiclassing. In Basic D&D, you pick one class (for non-humans, the race is the class) and that's the end of the story. Although that limits your options in terms of rules, it does help keep the game very simple and abstract (strong character archetypes).
Some folks have gone on to create custom class templates (point-based, kinda like the one in the 2e DMG, but much more balanced) to allow more flexibility, and you can end up with say a swashbuckler (built like a Fighter/Thief) who attacks like a Fighter, or a dwarven runecaster (built like a Cleric/Magic-user) who attacks like a Cleric. That keeps things simple during the game, at the expense of some more complexity at character creation time. But it's a pretty cool system though, for people who just can't handle the super-tight Basic D&D archetypes, and yet don't want the extra complexity & detail of AD&D or 3e.

 

[Silverleaf]

I'll go on record as prefering BAB over THAC0, and that BAB is better than THAC0 for this reason: No AC limit. Playing in high level 3rd ed games, I can still feel challenged to hit creatures, something that never happened in high level 2nd ed games. If AC didn't max out at -10, I might feel different. Oh, yeah, AD&D was never meant for characters over 20th level, 3rd edition does a much better job at high levels (compare Epic Book to Player's Option: High level of FR high level option). Epic book (which ain't great) does a better job than any of those other 2.

In the end 3rd editon does a better job of holding together for more levels before falling apart as power levels increase.

I suspect you've never looked at the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It's a single book compilation of the '83 Basic/Expert/Companion/Master boxed sets that manages characters levels 1-36. The combat tables have columns for AC 19 to -20, but the table is actually open-ended (there is a section entitled "Expanding the Attack Roll Table"). In terms of scope, it's basically like 3e + ELH all in one volume. And yes, the charaters were meant to reach 36th level, so that they may go on to the Immortals set. It's a totally different mindset than AD&D here, this is Epic with a capital E.
And to be honest, I prefer the older '81 Basic/Expert sets, which cap off at level 14. Somewhere along the line I find it difficult to relate a 1st level (or "0-level" Normal Human) character to those 30+ level demigods... But that said, I think the RC books is probably the simplest way to play uber-D&D, as most items don't stack and so you don't end up doing a lot of math. Well so long as you don't use the optional Weapon Mastery tables anyway...

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

I suspect you've never looked at the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. QUOTE]

Yes, and no.

I did play in a basic games using characters from the Rules Cyclopedia & I guess I did know it went up pretty high level. But only the GM who ran the game had a copy & the game ended when we were around 6th level. He did have a demigod NPC that he said was one of his old characters (Ye old quest for immortality from the Rules Cyclopedia, or somthing to do with the known world.

So, I'll rephrase based on those games I have knowledge as both a player & DM.

Basic, 1st ed. Don't know enough.

2nd ed, OK, prefered Skills & Powers for customization (but open-ended power gaming also laired here).

3rd edition: Found it easier to learn than 2nd ed (but just as hard to trully master).

3.5: Like it slightly better than 3.0, but I understand most of the reasons WHY changes were made. That allows me to disregard them with a greater degree of assurance that I'm not unbalencing something based on how I run.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

is this a troll? ... (not to be mean but this topic is old ... auld even)

the only difficulty with Thac0 was that it was awkward and it seemed like you were counting backwards ... or your target numbers were opposites (or something like that).

saves were a different story though

Hey! This is not my argument!

The Auld Grump

 

[diaglo]

Hey! This is not my argument!

The Auld Grump

should auld acquaintance be forgot?

 

[Maggan]

Or maybe let him roll for monsters

If I suspected a player was using cheater dice, I'd randomly "invert" rolls (roll = 20 - actual roll 50% of the time.)

Or maybe just have him help the DM and roll attack rolls for monsters. Preferably the attacks that are directed at his own PC.

Cheers!

M.