D&D 5E The tyranny of small numbers

[Micah Sweet]

I think that is a small minority that has problems finding anyone who wants to play with them.
In my small experience, a 14, 16 or 18 as a main ability score only matters, if another players has a different (higher) score, especially when they fill the same part role (like a barbarian and a melee fighter were one is the way better tank).
That's why I as a DM only allow standard array or point buy going forward. That also helps tremendously with encounter balance, because the math is based and balanced around starting main stats ranging from 14 to 16.

I agree in principle. Unfortunately, point buy is a no-go for some groups (including mine).

 

[Minigiant]

Too much single-ability dependency. A Strength-based fighter can do perfectly fine with Dex 8, because heavy armor removes Dexterity from the AC equation, and javelins make perfectly cromulent weapons at moderate distances. A caster "needs" to pump their casting stat above all else, because they get both prepared spells, spell attack, and spell DC from it.

This is a big one. 5e is most full of Single Ability Dependent classes. Most classes line up to the 7-9 roles of a party.

However some classes are most dependent than others.And Most roles are lined upwith one or two ability scores. And not evenly.

 

[tetrasodium]

Right, instead I think most people are more like myself. I WILL pick more potent mechanical solutions, but it isn't going to happen at the expense of RP.

So, for instance, the last 5e game I played in I created this Tabaxi street urchin character (why I don't know, I did, it was a year or two ago) but I had this idea that the character would be really fascinated with magic, but he's a kind of street fighting scrabbling sort of creature. So, I thought I'd probably make him become an Eldritch Knight, but it didn't seem to fit well with Tabaxi or whatnot, so instead I just made up this story where the character stole a 'magic book' and it taught him 'fighting tricks', so he's mechanically a Battlemaster. Because he found some magical +1 claws I expediently picked TWF as a fighting style. So, its not like incredibly optimized, but I did pick certain things based on "this is mechanically better" vs story, and the character is PRETTY good, mechanically. His story required a bit of reflavoring of maneuvers as 'magic' but everyone was just like "whatever, go for it." I mean, apparently his flavor of magic doesn't run into big problems with anti-magic, maybe because its internal. Maybe someone would get steamed about that, but whatever.

The point really is that this is probably pretty typical for a LARGE segment of players in my long experience playing FRPGs. Most players don't totally min/max and might make some sub-optimal choices, but to a great degree when faced with a better and a worse choice mechanically, they will either work out a thematic interpretation of the better choice, or reflavor something. Now and then they'll make a sub-optimal choice if it really matters.

That depends on what is the most mechanically potent. Which of these is a "better" array mechanically?

Spoiler

• 18 12 12 12 10 3
• 15 15 8 8 7 7
• 14 14 14 11 7 5
• 17 14 7 7 7 7
• 14 13 12 9 8 7

Those big negatives aren't something you just shrug off when it comes time to make an associated check

 

[Charlaquin]

That depends on what is the most mechanically potent. Which of these is a "better" array mechanically?

Spoiler

• 18 12 12 12 10 3
• 15 15 8 8 7 7
• 14 14 14 11 7 5
• 17 14 7 7 7 7
• 14 13 12 9 8 7

Those big negatives aren't something you just shrug off when it comes time to make an associated check

I feel like the first one is obviously the best between the options…

 

[Micah Sweet]

I feel like the first one is obviously the best between the options…

Yeah, I'd take the 18 with the 3 any day. Somebody will cover that low stat.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That depends on what is the most mechanically potent. Which of these is a "better" array mechanically?

Spoiler

• 18 12 12 12 10 3
• 15 15 8 8 7 7
• 14 14 14 11 7 5
• 17 14 7 7 7 7
• 14 13 12 9 8 7

Those big negatives aren't something you just shrug off when it comes time to make an associated check

All of them suck, but the first sucks the least. It's the one easiest to mitigate the concerns: put that 3 into Intelligence and you're fully functional (albeit very poor at logical evaluation and memory.) Wisdom could also work, since you can almost always depend on someone else to be observant, and being recklessly foolish can be fun--you're just at high risk of being mind-controlled.

Edit: We could also look at these via their sum-of-modifiers. In order, those are: +3, -2, +1, -3, 0. Clearly, the first array, despite having one HORRIBLE stat, is the best of the bunch.

Now, let's try tweaking it so all of them have +2 as their sum-of-modifiers:

• 18 12 12 12 9 3
• 15 15 12 12 7 7
• 14 14 14 11 9 5
• 17 14 11 10 9 7
• 14 13 12 11 10 9

All of these arrays keep the same highest stat, and all except the last have the same lowest stat. I have, obviously, made all of them except the first (especially the fourth) significantly better than they were before, and made the first very slightly worse so I didn't have to make bigger changes. And now it's a lot harder to pick out a clear worst option! A character with +1 to 3 stats could turn the first array into [19, 12, 12, 12, 10, 4] which still clearly has a nasty weakness, but is overall solid. Pick up a useful half-feat at level 4, especially if you're a SAD character, and you're good to go--even better if you're, say, a half-elf because that means you could start with [20, 12, 12, 12, 10, 4] and could thus either mitigate that 4, grab cool feats, or boost some of those secondary stats with each ASI.

The fifth array is pretty weak, but comes with the benefit that you can have zero penalties if you like. Generally more useful to do something like [16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9] with your racial stats, but [14, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10] isn't totally awful, just weak. Given these arrays, my preferences would likely be the first, fourth, or second. The third array is good for particularly MAD characters who can afford to dump something (probably Int), but I don't tend to have much interest in super-MAD characters.

 

[tetrasodium]

I feel like the first one is obviously the best between the options…

Sure, an 18 and feels that a single attribute with a -4 penalty from that single 3 is acceptable, but that's picking from a list of arrays not building your own array

Spoiler: what else is after the 18 what are the other 5 to balance it out?

Make it total zero or les for cost.

Depending on the GM's goal, maybe complicate things by requiring at least one ten or requiring that none of the numbers be reused. When everyone at the table is doing that it's not so

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Sure, an 18 and feels that a single attribute with a -4 penalty from that single 3 is acceptable, but that's picking from a list of arrays not building your own array

Spoiler: what else is after the 18 what are the other 5 to balance it out?

Make it total zero or les for cost.
View attachment 252524

Depending on the GM's goal, maybe complicate things by requiring at least one ten or requiring that none of the numbers be reused. When everyone at the table is doing that it's not so

As noted above, there's more to it than just "an 18 balances out a 3." You may have intended the arrays to all be essentially equal, but you accidentally made the first array significantly better than the others. Tweaking them so they've got the same sum-of-modifiers makes it a more difficult choice.

Part of the problem is, 5e is just as bad as 3e was with making some stats simply more desirable and other stats not particularly useful. Intelligence only matters for characters who expect to make Int-based skill checks, or Int saves. There are only 12 spells that inflict an Int save in 5e, and one of them (contact other plane) isn't even an offensive spell, while another (enemies abound) is a relatively weak control spell (since the save is repeated). The damage, from those that do damage, isn't particularly dramatic compared to their level, and some such spells (like illusory dragon) offer the opportunity to get Advantage on the save if you realize the result isn't fully real. Very few monsters (mostly psionic ones, which are themselves rarely used) inflict Intelligence saves, though sadly I don't have a good bead on exactly how many there are now. Back in 2019 there were only a very small number, apparently four (intellect devourer and mindflayer being the two primary ones, though both have very nasty results on failure.)

As a result, Intelligence is by far the easiest stat to dump, so long as you aren't a Wizard or Artificer. Charisma, likewise, is very easy to dump if your class doesn't use it, and its saves tend to be less dangerous than Intelligence (which, while rare, can be devastating). Wisdom is dangerous to dump for multiple reasons (Perception is always amazing, and these saves tend to resist mind control effects.) Strength can be safely dumped...so long as you can still carry your equipment, though early in the game, Str saves are common and can result in "pack"-style creatures laying on a lot of pain. Dexterity and Constitution are both extremely common saves and have major secondary benefits, so you pretty much never want to dump them.

So you can pretty easily get away with something like 18 14 10 10 8 3, especially if you're a Hexblade or a pure Cha caster (Bard/Sorcerer) where you don't need more than minimal Str and can safely dump Int completely. And by your own numbers, that array is actually worth a minuscule score (42+11-1-1-7-42 = 11 - 9 = 2).

 

[tetrasodium]

As noted above, there's more to it than just "an 18 balances out a 3." You may have intended the arrays to all be essentially equal, but you accidentally made the first array significantly better than the others. Tweaking them so they've got the same sum-of-modifiers makes it a more difficult choice.

Part of the problem is, 5e is just as bad as 3e was with making some stats simply more desirable and other stats not particularly useful. Intelligence only matters for characters who expect to make Int-based skill checks, or Int saves. There are only 12 spells that inflict an Int save in 5e, and one of them (contact other plane) isn't even an offensive spell, while another (enemies abound) is a relatively weak control spell (since the save is repeated). The damage, from those that do damage, isn't particularly dramatic compared to their level, and some such spells (like illusory dragon) offer the opportunity to get Advantage on the save if you realize the result isn't fully real. Very few monsters (mostly psionic ones, which are themselves rarely used) inflict Intelligence saves, though sadly I don't have a good bead on exactly how many there are now. Back in 2019 there were only a very small number, apparently four (intellect devourer and mindflayer being the two primary ones, though both have very nasty results on failure.)

As a result, Intelligence is by far the easiest stat to dump, so long as you aren't a Wizard or Artificer. Charisma, likewise, is very easy to dump if your class doesn't use it, and its saves tend to be less dangerous than Intelligence (which, while rare, can be devastating). Wisdom is dangerous to dump for multiple reasons (Perception is always amazing, and these saves tend to resist mind control effects.) Strength can be safely dumped...so long as you can still carry your equipment, though early in the game, Str saves are common and can result in "pack"-style creatures laying on a lot of pain. Dexterity and Constitution are both extremely common saves and have major secondary benefits, so you pretty much never want to dump them.

So you can pretty easily get away with something like 18 14 10 10 8 3, especially if you're a Hexblade or a pure Cha caster (Bard/Sorcerer) where you don't need more than minimal Str and can safely dump Int completely. And by your own numbers, that array is actually worth a minuscule score (42+11-1-1-7-42 = 11 - 9 = 2).

Yea 5e is just as bad if not worse than 3.x with how much it rewards making a character with one or two good stats at no real cost for a dump stat or two. I think it's probably worse because of how bounded accuracy giving a flat curve and how the massive overuse of advantage combine to exacerbate it. My point is that the excessively generous 4d6keep3 allotment takes that a step further by ensuring that there is no available choice that might result in some other type of optimization to further ensure one true style.

Edit: the elite array is too good in the places a pc needs and perfectly adequate everywhere else so there is no meaningful loss, that's also an array that would be very over budget with a 3d6 based pointbuy

 

[Bill Zebub]

I have felt for a while, that ability scores do not make sense if they're viewed like most of this board does.

If every character of given class is expected to have the same main ability score or constitution score at a given level, why is it a choice in the first place? If the class effectively dictates your ability scores, why are we pretending they're a choice, why are we pretending they represent individual variation? In such a paradigm they can't. It would be far more logical to get rid of ability scores then, and just have the classes provide the expected level appropriate bonuses.

It is not exactly what I would want, but it would be far more honest than pretending there is a choice and that they represent different characters being different, if in practice your class effectively dictates the score placement.

So seriously stop to think: what is the purpose of ability scores and what do they represent?

I agree with the criticism that in 5e has managed to homogenize stats.

However, I don't think the problem is about what players are "expected" to have, it's that the rules have become deterministic (that is, you choose, instead of rolling dice) and highly focused on primary class ability scores, and so the sensible decision is to max out your primary ability score, which happens to be what nearly everybody else using the same rules is doing.

I almost always make new characters with a 16 or 17 in their primary ability not because anybody at the table (or on the Internet?) expects me too, but because that's the highest number that the rules will let me start with, and maxing out that score makes for a more effective character, which I find more fun to play.

If the rules maxed out at 14/15, that's what I'd do. 18/19? That's what I'd do.

There's nothing magic about the 16, and it's not about expectations.